Flow

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
Being the one who seems to be known as a over-thinker in quite a few places. I have had a thought in comparison between pulling and drag racing genres. There have been people who believe a mass-flow is the way we make the cylinder properly filled. On the other hand, we have people worried about proper CFM & velocities to properly fill the cylinder we extract power in.

Now with either 'theory' there must be a port configuration to supplement each theory, wouldn't there be? With forced induction how would we be splitting hairs here? Obviously, if one shows a succession with said theory that adds to the proof of one way to make power, but, could one way benefit one genre of motorsports more than another. Basically, is forced induction a different story or could we still actually benefit in this way or that way, in this realm or that realm by designing a port like this or like that.

:hello:
 

S Phinney

Active member
Aug 15, 2008
4,008
18
28
Quncy, Fl
The general concensus is that in a forced induction engine thing like that do not matter much. My personal belief is that anything that can make a engine more efficient is worth doing if it's naturally aspirated or forced induction.
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,715
86
48
White Oak, PA
Forced induction does not change the flow provided the flow does not go trans-sonic. With forced induction, the flow is more likely to go trans-sonic.


Not to long ago, there was an issue with the Chevy engines in NASCAR and the restriction plates. The flow was going trans-sonic when they reduced the plate opening. The required position of the plate was causing a shock wave in the manifold, blocking flow. Though not forced induction, it is an example of how things change when you go trans-sonic.
 

GSXRTURBO1

New member
Feb 10, 2015
139
0
0
Detroit MI
seems to me diesel is a lot more forgiving than gasoline. With gas, max power requires a certain fuel/air ratio (stio) otherwise too rich to make any power or too lean and you start to use aluminum for fuel.

With diesel, the fuel/air ratio is less critical, but it's still just an air pump. Basically you make as much power as you desire as long as you have the air along with it. More air and the EGT is kept within reason, add fuel and the power goes up.... to a point.

It just seems much easier to make power with a diesel without worrying about volumetric effeciency and such.
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
Agreed, but, my view was more toward the actual geometrical flow are and how that could change which, inturn, changes our effective flow area location and shape. Looking at the Cummins 5.9 head for example. The short side radius and throat seems to be a narrow area. Then you look at the Duramax, being aluminum you have a taller deck thickness which puts a short side radius a little further away from the deck surface of the head. The taller the throat area is it should turn out more stable flow because of the length of time has been extended to 'straighten' the airstream. We also have to consider the exiting side of the deck too however it just kinda of 'blobs' into the cylinder once it is past the deck surface?

Even when we want 'good' boost numbers as some say, wouldn't we just want a boost sufficient (minimum) amount to make the power level instead of excessive amounts? I guess this thought may be more towards the longevity of parts. High pressure slows flow, low pressure tends to produce more active flow. Waves don't matter much down low but they do help in circumstances in the higher levels of operation.
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
You know, what we need to do is build a basic clear tube showing actual flow and using a spray that would show up in a fluorescent light with the lights off or more primitively use smoke, however smoke will not always act as the actual flowing gas. If we want to be more accurately portray the situation we would need to have a large tank with a regulated valve to keep the medium at constant at 'this' or 'that' pressure during the test. Would it be beneficial between a positive pressure verse a negative pressure test environment?

Once we leave we must incorporate the following, add, subtract or correct me please.

Ambient temp during test
Ambient temp during racing
Ambient humidity during test
Ambient humidity during racing
Compressor inlet
Compressor housing
Wheel design
Tube to the aftercooler
Aftercooler design (whichever kind you prefer)
Tube leaving the after cooler
Aftercooler boot connections
Induction manifold
Plenum entrance (if used)
Log manifold entrance (if used)
Cylinder head runner entrance
Valve design
Valve pockets in the firedeck

Piston position during filling time?

I am sure there are more items that are to be considered but to give a general consensus, we should? first consider the efficiency of the Turbine efficiency before we dig to the induction side known as the compressor? Since we are speaking of flow in general regarding cross-sectional areas anything is game in this thread :thumb: Technical depth is never discouraged so have at it if anyone has something to add. Until then I am pondering about my flow thoughts.

I am sure there are others who have flow questions too for conversation of curiosity or maybe possibly have a problem etc, I am not saying you can not post a question, I am saying DO POST IT! This thread is meant for it.
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
What makes for a good efficient turbocharger guys, and gals? I don't think I will get into turbos for a long while so I will just let a friend deal in that department albeit I am curious on the designs out there.
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
I wonder how the turbines and compressors change as rpms become higher and higher. Since CSA in anything has a effect, even if forcing the induction charge into a higher density, we still deal with high pressure, slower flow and higher flow rates with lower pressure. We must take into view the actual temperature too of the flowing working fluid which effects waves (not of huge importance) but effects flow in general in terms of activity. I am sure there are other beliefs on this as well.

Here is some from Cummins on the inverse blade designs.
Using the alternative three dimensional inverse design method the blade geometry is computed for a specified pressure distribution along the blade surfaces.
Cummins on conventional
Conventional design involves specifying the blade angle and thickness distribution for the compressor wheel blades and then using an iterative approach to arrive at the optimum design.

Source:http://www.cumminsturbotechnologies...BinaryAsset/PDFs/Downloads/HTi_edition_14.pdf
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
What numbers do I look for what reading compressor maps? What should a good 'map' look like? :confused:

Good luck to all at Texas this weekend!
 

countrycorey

Trust Me I'm an Engineer
Jan 30, 2010
1,512
35
48
LA
Here's a map I found on Garrett's page:

e87284216288c60d47ac1feb9d6a02ff.jpg



Corey
 

quadracer37

New member
Mar 31, 2009
547
0
0
northern, IL
My experience and personal opinion.
Massive flowing heads don't mean shit. Same with huge cams. 1950+ hp, single charger, "mild hand ported" factory heads stock valves and a mild cam. And done with only 85 psi boost and 4000rpm. Sure ported heads are not hurting anything, but some of the extreme shit is unnecessary and just raises the hp curve, Why spin it harder than it needs to?
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
Thank you Corey, now with the maps I see as far as the 'width' of the circles that create the range one turbo covers, I am believing narrow is worse and wide is better for street of low performance apps? The efficiency islands show elongation in shape. I have not looked at many maps but would this picture map be a good layout of performance?

Quadracer, many others I am sure like Stinger agree with you. But its not massive flow like it has been known for, bigger hole = flow more but that obviously is not true for engines with turbulent flow, start, stop etc of working fluid. What I am working for is not something that can keep a supply of adequate mass flow to rpms of higher levels. It is HOW it does it, it doesn't matter if its low, medium and high speed diesel engines. You can have a port & runner layed out to provide what the engine needs at its optimum point that you, who ever it is building, what ever it is you are building. Once a engine goes past some point there has to be a change to provide a consistent continuing flow, much like for example if Stingpuller had a cylinder head shop, he would obviously utilize this or that on what is or may be being built. Changes in port geometry for instance can 'release' restrictions, can allow your turbo to operate differently, hopefully in the more efficient manner. Again if you have the turbo that may be hailed as the 'best' and you have a factory induction with untouched heads and your power only goes up 'this much' your friction horsepower went up a bit too probably, we all know when your boost hits a certain level and you start heating your intake because of the turbo its not good either but that is usually farther down the road.

Huge cams, again, application specific. Actually stating huge cams is a little vague but what you really want is as we all know the 'right' camshaft profiles on exhaust lobes and intake lobes. Not sure who all does cams in the D-max world but I am sure there are some good things not touched yet for diesel engine performance that will open more speed records.

If we have a turbo that operates great, with mediocre heads sure it might perform fine for someone running within the regular rpm range there is no need to change. I know what I want to do seems out there but I just feel like stretching limits, in order to grow you must push forward. Not everyone wants to put the time into it which is fine and I am sure the density makes up for a bit. With Huge flowing heads such as Guy's stage 3 or Wagler's product through Brodix, have the heads been utilized to the fullest yet? I know the Brodix's have had leaking problems but anyways. If I have a head that flows great in its range of design, a cam that produces great exhaust and great intake events WITH a good induction & exhaust manifold at any level, performance should be satisfied. We can not neglect either side of the turbocharger, we need to drive our wheels properly. From air cleaner (or not) to tailpipe, we have a system and it just needs to be addressed in certain applications that is all.

Knowing there are different models out there, what would be a good flowing charger that is available? Does it have a close competitor in the same range?

Stinger have you tried more than one Compressor & turbine wheel for your dragster? I am sure you thought about a couple to get that rail moving.

How sensitive is a turbocharger to a camshaft change? Are we still around the basic single pattern cams? :confused:
 

Stingpuller

The Pusher Man
Jan 11, 2007
2,019
35
48
57
central Ohio
You keep reading and I will keep racing

I'm a little different than most everyone in this diesel world. See I'm super competitive and want to win. I try many things good and bad. I won't talk bad about most unless it's just pure junk. I don't try and make others think I'm smarter than them. I want everyone to think ( and for the most part I am) dumber than dirt. The only ego trip I have is wanting to win! I won't tell anyone they need stuff that for the most part they don't. I don't tell everyone my stuff makes u real power, because it doesn't. I'm going to say it one more time and spend your money on good turbos and injectors! That's is were you will see big power advantages. Heads and cams have there place and will help a little but for most it's not going to do what they think it will or what some will tell you it will. They is some VERY smart people in here but there not the ones trying to tell everyone how smart they are. there is guys who have tried many many things they just don't talk about it. Perfect your combo will get you better results than the trick of the week.
 

Fahlin Racing

New member
Aug 22, 2012
330
0
0
NE Ohio
I know that Stinger you don't have to mention it, many people are and that is what makes racing great! But for the conversation racing is a great teacher. Albeit what racing doesn't tell you is the coagulation of everything incorporated in either one part or a whole system on what makes it tick. You obviously can't slap a turbo from a KTTA on a little 6.6L and say yay I have a big turbo I will win every time. Too bad I didn't catch my friend with a Dmax I could have grabbed for a case of beer or it would be in process already in that old funny car chassis I have.

Exactly.
Perfect your combo will get you better results than the trick of the week.
The reason I research things for builds^^ :thumb:

What should I look for in turbochargers then for a drag racing app? would it be something still along the lines of a broad operation band just in a higher than the norm? Formula 1 cars (outside of the USA) use diesel engines, but I suppose they chose something that spools quickly (overall smaller?) considering they decelerate and accelerate multiple times.