Info: Discussion on oxygen density

[JOHNBOY]

Hmm good read.

Now I am wonder about the effects of the pressure of the injected water. Does the size of the dropelt really matter? The same mass of water in more smaller drops would have more surface then larger drops would for the same injected quanity? Correct? My thinking is that the increased suface area of the finer droplet would have a better cooling effect. Make sense or am I all wet?

I have been thinking about water injection a lot lately. high much pressure. How many nozzles? Where to put them? Is putting them in the right before the head best? Or is there not enough time there to cool the charge and the injection point should be further away?

That is all for another thread though!
Great topic KB!

 

[JoshH]

My thinking is that the increased suface area of the finer droplet would have a better cooling effect. Make sense or am I all wet?

Nice pun... :rofl:

 

[Stingpuller]

Cooling

My uneducated HillBilly racing back ground tells me the best way to cool mine is 8 noozles, in the intake manifold of course with ICE COOLED NOS! Nos is a drug and I'm the PIMP DADDY....:rofl:

 

[Killerbee]

Hmm good read.

Now I am wonder about the effects of the pressure of the injected water. Does the size of the dropelt really matter? The same mass of water in more smaller drops would have more surface then larger drops would for the same injected quanity? Correct? My thinking is that the increased suface area of the finer droplet would have a better cooling effect. Make sense or am I all wet?

I have been thinking about water injection a lot lately. high much pressure. How many nozzles? Where to put them? Is putting them in the right before the head best? Or is there not enough time there to cool the charge and the injection point should be further away?

That is all for another thread though!
Great topic KB!

With humble opine, it is dern near impossible to fully evaporate water in the, under one second timeframe that it will take for a droplet to run through the intake tract. I do think 90% plus evaporation is possible, but only by passing it through a 700 mph guillotine, then subjecting the sub-micron droplet to 500 degree heat.

I also humbly opine, that conventional WMI has failed miserably, mainly because no mechanism exists to insure evaporation of the droplets in typical post-CAC applications. These droplets form streams of agglomerated nozzle effluent that have no chance of cooling charge appreciably.

As Pat said, they just lower EGT. What good is that?

Now, if you manage some cooling pre-compressor, it works better with higher efficiency, and less compression effects. Having the charge stream at a lower temp on the other side of the compressor, in its densifying role, reduces friction and pressure drop throughout the entire intake tract...always a good thing for MAF increase. All good theory, till the prototype is tested.

Since GE does this 24/7 with very expensive CT's, I think it will work here. It is going to be expensive if it doesn't.

Stinger, 8 nozzles...its gonna be great or an 8 fold embarassment. But they are not going anywhere near the intake manifold.

 

[Stingpuller]

Cooling

I do agree that the farther away from the motor you put(W/M,NOS,what ever) the better it is in cooling the intake charge. It has more time to do its job. Eight fan spray nozzles will fit just fine. I don't like NOS going through the turbo, I would think that would be hard on the wheel. Now CO2 on the back side of the wheel to get a BIG charger to light, now were talking.

 

[Killerbee]

I don't like NOS going through the turbo, I would think that would be hard on the wheel.

why? Isn't it just a cold gas?

 

[mytmousemalibu]

Not provoking, just curious... If M/W only drops EGT's than why is my post CAC/nozzle pipe nice and cool?

 

[Killerbee]

Isn't it suppose to be cool?

I am not sure what you are asking, nor do I know how your ride is configured. Sorry ???

 

[mytmousemalibu]

I also humbly opine, that conventional WMI has failed miserably, mainly because no mechanism exists to insure evaporation of the droplets in typical post-CAC applications. These droplets form streams of agglomerated nozzle effluent that have no chance of cooling charge appreciably.

As Pat said, they just lower EGT. What good is that?

.

Thats why i was confused! Sorry for the confusion! :rofl:

 

[Stingpuller]

Cooling

Nope, under 1050 psi its a liquid. Thats why you should not make your bottle pressure higher than that. Some like to start out at 1200 or higher and when you do that it will change state as it goes through a pressure drop.

 

[Killerbee]

N2O boils at -126 F.

How is it not a gas at 1 atm? Looking to learn something. Swing away.

 

[JOHNBOY]

N20 is a super critical substance. Not enough pressure it boils. Enough pressure it liquid. To much pressure back to gas. IIRC

 

[JOHNBOY]

Not provoking, just curious... If M/W only drops EGT's than why is my post CAC/nozzle pipe nice and cool?

Do you have an infared temp gun? You could test and see.

Warm the truck, run it around the block briskly with W/M off. Get out and measure the temps of the pre CAC tube, PostCAC tube before the W/M nozzle, and after the nozzle. Go run around the block again with W/M on and repeat above checks.

 

[JOHNBOY]

With humble opine, it is dern near impossible to fully evaporate water in the, under one second timeframe that it will take for a droplet to run through the intake tract. I do think 90% plus evaporation is possible, but only by passing it through a 700 mph guillotine, then subjecting the sub-micron droplet to 500 degree heat.

I also humbly opine, that conventional WMI has failed miserably, mainly because no mechanism exists to insure evaporation of the droplets in typical post-CAC applications. These droplets form streams of agglomerated nozzle effluent that have no chance of cooling charge appreciably.

As Pat said, they just lower EGT. What good is that?

Now, if you manage some cooling pre-compressor, it works better with higher efficiency, and less compression effects. Having the charge stream at a lower temp on the other side of the compressor, in its densifying role, reduces friction and pressure drop throughout the entire intake tract...always a good thing for MAF increase. All good theory, till the prototype is tested.

Since GE does this 24/7 with very expensive CT's, I think it will work here. It is going to be expensive if it doesn't.

Stinger, 8 nozzles...its gonna be great or an 8 fold embarassment. But they are not going anywhere near the intake manifold.

That mostly make good sense to me. Guess I dont need to tap holes in my manifold now. Probably tap in the intake neck. FWIW EGT controls is the issue I am trying to address. If I get more HP from water injection so be it. I will not spray W/M as it is not legal from use in the competitions I compete in. I make plenty of HP with just my big turbo and lots of fuel.

Reasons why I think most off the self Water injection setups fail.

1 To low of injection pressure. While a 150psi sounds like alot as you increase the volume of flow the pressure goes down because the pumps include are not robust enough.

2 No pressure reference. If you have 50psi of boost with 150psi of Water injection pressure your actual injection pressure is 100psi. Now throw that gay plastic tank away. Use a sealed water tank that has a line run to the top of it from the intake neck. This evens the pressure arcoss the system and allows the injection pressure of the water to rise back to what the pump is capable of.



I am really leaning torward masking my own setup using a pump set up like this
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...tomer driven-_-Recently Viewed-_-Product Page

Use a reguator like this http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200339411_200339411

Using nozzles like this. http://www.cloudmister.com/p-104-misting-nozzles-button-typebrass-wss.aspx

 

[Stingpuller]

Killerbee, I'm not getting into a pissing match with you:hug:. You run yours how you want. I could care less. My stuff works for me. Thats all that matters, too me. Thats why I normaly don't get into the tec banter with others. I have always said timing is your friend, others made fun of me. Thats fine also. I'm a big boy. If there was nobody doing different things nobody would ever advance. I think I made pretty good power with stock stuff and NEVER HURT ANYTHING. I have SoCal heads and cam now along with Arias piston, Howards rods, lighter crank, different intake setup so I guess we will see if I can make power with the big boys. My only regret is I didn't try harder with the stock stuff. I think if one keeps everything in check you could make big power and live.

 

[Diesel Pilot]

I am really leaning torward masking my own setup using a pump set up like this
http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/...tomer driven-_-Recently Viewed-_-Product Page

Use a reguator like this http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_6970_200339411_200339411

Using nozzles like this. http://www.cloudmister.com/p-104-misting-nozzles-button-typebrass-wss.aspx

Wow!

That's the kind of stuff I want on my truck. You know you are going to get good atomization with that stuff. Those cooling misters kick ass at pools and amusement parks.

 

[Killerbee]

That mostly make good sense to me. Guess I dont need to tap holes in my manifold now. Probably tap in the intake neck. FWIW EGT controls is the issue I am trying to address. If I get more HP from water injection so be it. I will not spray W/M as it is not legal from use in the competitions I compete in. I make plenty of HP with just my big turbo and lots of fuel.

Reasons why I think most off the self Water injection setups fail.

1 To low of injection pressure. While a 150psi sounds like alot as you increase the volume of flow the pressure goes down because the pumps include are not robust enough.

2 No pressure reference. If you have 50psi of boost with 150psi of Water injection pressure your actual injection pressure is 100psi. Now throw that gay plastic tank away. Use a sealed water tank that has a line run to the top of it from the intake neck. This evens the pressure arcoss the system and allows the injection pressure of the water to rise back to what the pump is capable of.

In theory, and now in practice with the IOH kit, lowering COT makes a dent in reducing EGT. Give some serious thought to pre-C fogging. I am going to have a prototype of the 8 nozzle E-FOG available to field test soon, you may want to test it after I wrap up with it. It has the added advantage of avoiding the high pressure issue that you correctly referenced.

 

[JOHNBOY]

Beleive me I am thinking about it!

I looking at it several ways right know. I am thinking like ten nozzles know. Four in each intake like Sting wants with his N20. One in the neck and one pre turbo. If it erodes the wheel I am not to worried. I have more than one turbo and the comp wheel is not that pricey. I really think that given the right nozzle and enough pressure behind it pre compressor water injection will be great thing.

I want port nozzles to keep the cylinder egts even. I have a hard time beleiving as much water gets to the back cylinders (7 and 8) as the second ones back (2 and 3) with single point injection . Port style injection will be the best bet to get things evened out IMHO.

 

[JOHNBOY]

Wow!

That's the kind of stuff I want on my truck. You know you are going to get good atomization with that stuff. Those cooling misters kick ass at pools and amusement parks.

That is what I was thinking. With those nozzles and that pump I should have no problem getting a fine mist. i think all said and done with controler it I will have under $1000 in the whole deal. Most store bought high pressure setup cost around 1500 (Schieds, Haisleys, and Hypermax).


I also want to put the pump in the bed with water lines having quick disconnects, Weather pack plugs for the control wiring, and a winch plug in for the motor 12v feed. That way I can easily and quickly disconnect and remove to pull in a no water class.

 

[Killerbee]

...One in the neck and one pre turbo.... .

“Wet compression is a process in which water droplets are injected into the compressor inlet air and allowed to be carried into the compressor. As the water droplets evaporate in the front stages of the compressor, it reduces the air temperature and therefore reduces the amount of work that must be done by the compressor …The net effect is reduction in compressor work. … Wet compression also results in a significant reduction in the compressor discharge temperature…There is no other technology that offers so many benefits and yet is so economical. These results suggest that this application will become, in the near future, a primary and effective means of increasing CT capacity…The output of a CT declines as the ambient temperatures rises. Typically, the reduction in output is 3-3.5% for every 10°F increase in the air temperature. Cooling the inlet air can restore or enhance the capacity of a CT.”…WET COMPRESSION by Sanjeev Jolly, P.E.