Info: CP3....Its insides! EXPOSED!!!

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
0
0
Kansas
You guys asked for them, you gottem! Now, I got tired of freezing my arse off so i didnt get it as clean as i'd liked for ya guys:eek:

Now seen apart, the CP3 is a very intresting piece of equipment! One might think its a very complicated deal inside...Well....Its not! Its really so simple its stupid, very very precise, but simple! The whole cylinder housing seems to be made of forged steel and is Extremelly hard and dense! I went to mark the cylinder banks to keep coresponding parts as such, now i went to centerpunch numbers and it laughed at my punch and killed it! It ate my rotary burr i tried to scribe it with too!:rofl: The "crank" is more or less an eccentric and the "rotor" moves radialy but dosen't spin. The elements consist of a cup, spring and the pump piston. The cup rides against the rotor and the spring pushes the cup against the rotor and the piston basically rides free with the incoming fuel at pressure forcing it down. Now the pump displacment variability comes from the how much fuel is let in, by the FCA and that determines how far the piston draws down full of fuel, think as if it were a syringe. Now the fuel comes in via the small little valve plate that sits on the top of the cylinder bore, kinda like a cylinder head! It has a tiny little valve and spring in the center much like a valve in a regular cylinder head! Now as the piston is forced down from fuel incoming the valve plate, the fuel forces that valve open, a small one-way unit if you will. As the crank/rotor compresses the piston compressing fuel creating rail pressure and forces it out an exhaust port at the top of the cylinder below the valve plate! Now as the compressed fuel exhausts out the port, it passes by a check valve that keeps the hi-psi fuel from returning! The center crankshaft also has a drive end that protrudes from the opposite end of the pump housing that runs the gear pump. This pump on an unmodified truck draws the fuel from the tank to itself and pressurizes it and sends it through the fuel inlet circutry. The FCA or Fuel Control Actuator is the next in line, limiting the amount of fuel the cylinders can draw in. As you can see, the pistons are tiny, bout the size of abe's head on that penny!Thats its operation! (I think ;))

Now unfortunaly this ones a wounded soldier, the very bottom element was scored up. Now when i rotated it around i heared an intermittant "snap" sound, which was the siezing element snaping back down against the crank. I suppose, on the truck it was hanging in its bore and basically becoming a 2-cyl pump, hence low rail psi....etc. Now i can only speculate that beeings the failed element was the very bottom one and fairly dirty, that contaminates got in the bore and tore it up? Could be a number of other causes aswell.
You can see the one piston is scored and heat discolored.

Some of my ideas and opinions...

I can see how one wouldn't want to "over-rev" one of these pumps, think just as a regular engine encounters valve float. Now this pump has mechanical springs that have inclination to float just as any would when exceeding its RPM rate, now it does have fuel to help force the piston down but just like PW on the injectors, theres only so much time to get fuel in the cylinders! Now i can see how more fuel inlet psi could be advantagous to hi-rpm function, and why couldn't a heavier cup spring be employed? The stock ones don't seem all that stout givin the cyclic rate it could see?

So enjoy, add to, correct me, ask? :hug: Its sure intresting!
 

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juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,657
120
63
Chesterfield, Mass.
wow :thumb: you're the man! it doesn't look so simple to "stroke" it and get more displacement from what i can see but i am a retard. how would you guess WD goes about it?
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
0
0
Kansas
Well im sure they'll add here later, but by the word "stroke" refering to the distance the piston is traveling its bore...Id say they'd hafta be changing the throw of the crank/rotor assembly? Looks like the crank is three pieces itself? front and rear center pins and the crankpin pressed into the two togather making one chunk? They might be making a whole new unit or re-offseting it? Not positive:eek: But It looks as one might be able to bore the cylinders and make larger element pistons? Thing is, the tolerances involved here are Extremelly tight! Especially the piston/bore fit, and very, very fine finish, its gotta seal crazy pressures! So machining is prolly the limitations to modding of it. As i said the pump is pretty simple, but its cost has got to be for its precicness. Bet the Bosch machining equip aint cheap!
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,719
104
63
White Oak, PA
You can offset grind the shaft then adjust the cup thickness so the piston does not overstroke and hit the end of the bore.

But I don't know if that is what they do or not.
 

juddski88

Freedom Diesel
Jul 1, 2008
4,657
120
63
Chesterfield, Mass.
ya thats what i thought, but you said it kinda moved around freely? what does that mean? like the lobes don't rotate on a constant axis? i'm confused :confused:
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
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0
Kansas
Sure Pat, i kinda enjoyed it, exept the scored element part:rofl:

Ok, on the crank movement... the "lobe" looking rotor (dark part in cranks center:p)...the element cups sit against the flats of it. Your pistons are spaced radially every 120*degrees, ok. Now as i said the rotor is turned eccentrically via the crank but it doesnt spin circularlly itself. I know what ur thinkin, like it spins and bumps the elements like a camshaft would a lifter, but its not.

The easyest way i guess to explain it (cheesy!) as... Imagine your 3 points of contact in a triangle, ok and think that old game, PONG, the bar (say instead of a flat bar though its a triangle) stays flat but moves in a circle and bumps each point pushing it outward? Does that make any sense? :eek::angel:
 

LB7Diesel

Oh Boy!
Sep 3, 2006
1,355
0
0
Melbourne, F.L.
Thanks for the pics!!! Any tricks on getting the pump apart? I remember you saying there was a trick to removing the crank, how did you remove it? Also, I really hope this thread stays on course, this could be a really good one!!!!
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
0
0
Kansas
Well some of the guys said itsa PITA to get the crank assembly out and by the looks of it it would seem that way as all 3 elements must be compressed at the same time to clear the rear thrust journal. Now Wicked said theres a trick and makes it pretty easy but left the rest to figure out! After screwing with the screwdriver trick and staring at it for a few minutes i figured it out or at least a good way! I took a drift and knocked the core plugs sideways in there bores and pulled them out, allowing easy acsess to push the elements in and pop the crank out.! Now to get the elements out you hafta keep 2 of them in so theres room to get them out and i just pushed em in and shoved a socket in the core plug hole that locked them in!
 

WICKED DIESELS

you need more fuel
All the materials are extremely hard, in the CP3 with the exception of the front cover. This makes it difficult and time consuming, to make it flow more fuel. I believe it is above 60 Rockwell on the hardness scale. The wear shown on the plunger is why every Duramax needs a lift pump. I have never recieved a Duramax CP3 for a core that was reuseable. I have a high pressure pump from a 6.4 Ford we are building, it is made by Siemens. It is very similar to the Bosch unit, with the exception that it has 4 bolts that retain what looks like a cylinder head, 3 in the pump. It removes the complete bore, plunger spring and tappet. A CP3 at 100% VE displaces 0.068 cubic inches in one revolution. Around 1 cubic centimeter, at best in actual flow we might get 85% of that. I find it impressive that they can provide enough fuel 600 hp, in some applications.
 

super diesel

<<<< Under Pressure
I believe it is above 60 Rockwell on the hardness scale. The wear shown on the plunger is why every Duramax needs a lift pump. I find it impressive that they can provide enough fuel 600 hp, in some applications.

Your right on on the hardness. I tested some years back on my RC tester at different depths (cuttaways) as well. Found out some interesting info.

Lift pumps are these CP3s best friend.

Yes, very impressive in the power department. The atomization has put the amount of fuel we are able to use up into a totally new area of efficency.

On a side note. I found it harder to put back together (without the tool I made) than to take apart.
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
0
0
Kansas
Well i completlly understand the reason for the extremelly hard materials. They are under tremendous strain and the need for them to be so tough that the wear is at a minimum. Guess where any metal that wears off ends up! Could be some of the reason the bottom plunger piston was scored? The others look very good. I'd sure like to at least give it a try to revive the bad element. Im kinda limited to what i can do but if i can get it to move in its bore smoothly i might have a useable pump, granted that cylinder wont be 100% it still might serve as a decent dual fueler. If not, oh well, least i tried! My only plan is to polish the hell out of the piston and bore but gonna be tough cause this is some stout metal! Like i said, i tried to make some marks on it with a center punch and killed my punch!
 

Josh2002cc

That Uncle
Apr 2, 2007
1,832
0
0
39
Well i completlly understand the reason for the extremelly hard materials. They are under tremendous strain and the need for them to be so tough that the wear is at a minimum. Guess where any metal that wears off ends up! Could be some of the reason the bottom plunger piston was scored? The others look very good. I'd sure like to at least give it a try to revive the bad element. Im kinda limited to what i can do but if i can get it to move in its bore smoothly i might have a useable pump, granted that cylinder wont be 100% it still might serve as a decent dual fueler. If not, oh well, least i tried! My only plan is to polish the hell out of the piston and bore but gonna be tough cause this is some stout metal! Like i said, i tried to make some marks on it with a center punch and killed my punch!


:eek:

Lets say this idea works, and you can somewhat get the pump to operate at some psi(what psi I don't know) but...if you bring this pump back to life and use it as a second cp3 would it help the truck maintain higher psi at say 75% operating level vs only having one cp3?
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
0
0
Kansas
:eek:

Lets say this idea works, and you can somewhat get the pump to operate at some psi(what psi I don't know) but...if you bring this pump back to life and use it as a second cp3 would it help the truck maintain higher psi at say 75% operating level vs only having one cp3?

Well i dont see why not! Say your 3rd cyl is dead, the other two are still working at capacity and producing the required volume and psi. There only additionally helping the orig pump in the valley. Now as the only pump, id say no, the only two element cant keep up the fuel demand alone. The other cylinders output cant back feed to the bad hole, each one has its own checkvalve. So once the fuel has been expelled into the high psi circurt, it stays there! :)