Bare minimum of upgrade parts needed for longevity for a sub 700hp build.

[Dean E]

Thanks for the reply, As I am pricing things the word cheap is nowhere to be found even economical is hard. I will be looking into the parts you have shown me.

Please let me know how much the keying costs when you find out, as that will determine if I just bight the bullet on a new crankshaft.

James your first line has me a little scared, I was really hoping to stay with a stock crank on the learner engine. The second line gives me hope and is what I was hoping to hear. As far as towing, don't think I will ever approach the CDL requirement range (at least not often). The most power I would want is to be able to comfortably pass semis on flat land with lighter loads.

Thanks, Noted!

Thanks JoshH yeah I have sadly learned that it is true, nothing is bulletproof, we can only try to get as close as we can. I will look at the parts recommended.

As far as towing, don't think I will ever approach the CDL requirement range (at least not often). The most power I would want is to be able to comfortably pass semis on flat land with lighter loads. Do you have a thread on your tuning/fuel system? Thanks

Do you have a thread on the mods you have done? Thanks

Hi ikeG, thanks for your replies on that thread, I broke out the piston question separately so others could find the answer to that question when searching easier.

Thanks for the complete list!

I was thinking of just using ARP for the rods and heads, so I need it everywhere? It does give someone piece of mind for sure.

Is the pinned/shimmed oil pump better than the LML pump, if it is comprable that would be good as I understand to run the LML pump I have to change the cover also so the pinned/shimmed route would be much less complicated.

Also on the damper, on the permanent engine I was thinking of ATI, as they would give me another option (all be it not my preferred option) on running a P7100 pump if my computer paranoia kicks in too hard in the future.

If I have to buy the crank I will,

Again, Thanks for the replies, for this preliminary learner motor, I was hoping to use the stock crank, rods and have the engine externally balanced. The permanent engine I want to build I am still going for the same HP, but with a higher budget.And by spreading the parts purchasing over time as my wallet recovers from the previous expenditures on the permanent engine, that I can build/buy the good stuff over time. The permanent engine will be internally balanced which is yet another expence.

The one thing I definitely want to run on the learner engine is the compound turbos. I have grown weary of watching EGT gauges in the Cummins and Powerstroke trucks I had and the compounds (coupled with the mods to support it) makes the EGT gauge a nice thing to have and glance at, but doesn't need to glued to/stressed over, I'd rather enjoy looking at the view outside the windshield...plus its a little extra HP!

I am under pressure from the boss to finish this truck and don't think i can afford the crankshaft and I really thought the stock rods were good to 700/750 HP range. Should I lower my HP range/expectations on the learner engine? If so what should I be shooting for HP wise?

I have not done much for mods. I did away with the stock fuel filter and added a FASS 95 lift pump. Did a Gearbox Z plus tuner that added 70HP and then recently did a S&B 62 gallon fuel tank. The tuner also did away with some of the EPA friendly stuff. Changed all fluids over to synthetic and never looked back. Pushing 200,000 on my LMM and running great. More than enough power for everything I want from the LMM. Start pushing too hard things start popping up. Plenty here about cracks in the pistons that is why I never pushed for more out of my diesel. Dean

 

[kidturbo]

Upgrade the piston oil squirters to LML. As mentioned above, pin the oil pump, and toss a washer under the bypass spring. That's my #1 cooling mod, backed by GM acknowledging the issue and upgrading in the LML's.

 

[turbovan]

^This is a hard to beat setup for the money.


3) small cam like a wagler stage 1, callies stage 1, comp stage 1, socal 3388 etc

5) pinned/shimmed oil pump (I always go DHD)

7) 17-19 oil cooler or 20+ if you want to run the newer filter

What does the cam do? Just add more top end?

Is shimming the oil pump needed on a stock turboed tow build? I've heard of them spinning but never seen it in my area.

Does it drop oil temps that much?


Thanks for your reply, always trying to learn.

 

[Bdsankey]

What does the cam do? Just add more top end?

Increases overall power "under the curve" or "average power" so to speak. You may not pick up 100whp peak but the average power across the entire power band is typically elevated.

Is shimming the oil pump needed on a stock turboed tow build? I've heard of them spinning but never seen it in my area.

Does it drop oil temps that much?


Thanks for your reply, always trying to learn.

I shim them on every build we do, typically I just buy the pinned/shimmed pump from DHD and call it a day.

 

[kidturbo]

What does the cam do? Just add more top end?

Is shimming the oil pump needed on a stock turboed tow build? I've heard of them spinning but never seen it in my area.

Does it drop oil temps that much?


Thanks for your reply, always trying to learn.

The Wagler stage 1 cams I run have a nice flat torque curve up to about 4200R. So ya gain a few RPM on the top end at least. That data was with 100% over injectors.

The oil pump and squirter mods is what I've learned about cooling the pistons in a marine environment, where they are loaded for minutes or hours at a time. Goal is spay more oil into the pistons for better cooling, which hopefully stops the Mahle race pistons from cracking under extended loads. So far, my data shows it's got some validity to it. And is easy $ tricks.

Second we fix the weak point of factory oil pump, the shaft gear fit. I personally have never spun a gear, but haven't ran anything that wasn't pinned in over a decade. But while ya have it apart, easy fix.. We also have two pressure bypass valves in the Duramax oiling system. First is in the oil pump, which ya shim to raise factory output pressure and overall volume. Hopefully.. Second valve in the front cover acts as the max pressure safety bypass. Never seen any down side to shimming the factory GM pumps. Have seen a couple 100psi cold start up's at worst.

 

[malibu795]

Hard parts seams line out by everyone else.

Biggest issue I have towing heavy was cooling, mainly engine oil temp.. the LML/L5P cooler up grade wasn't an option when I was towing..
Diff gears and matching TC stall made a huge difference in how everything handled.

KID I saw ~80-90psi at #3 main via mechanical with a melling HV pump.. iirc the engine oil relief valve dumps 85-90psi range

 

[kidturbo]

KID I saw ~80-90psi at #3 main via mechanical with a melling HV pump.. iirc the engine oil relief valve dumps 85-90psi range

I was just looking at a gauge pic this morning, and mine peg an 80psi gauge at stat up. So that sounds completely reasonable that front valve starts dumping around 85-90. However I'm running those modified LML's pumps also.

Plus 2 on the oil cooler mod, with a gauge in it..

 

[malibu795]

I was just looking at a gauge pic this morning, and mine peg an 80psi gauge at stat up. So that sounds completely reasonable that front valve starts dumping around 85-90. However I'm running those modified LML's pumps also.

Plus 2 on the oil cooler mod, with a gauge in it..

What's the LML oil pump trick? And what's pro/con over the melling 316 pump?
Haven't really been keeping up since I took my LMM dually off the road in October '17 with cracked main web.

 

[Bdsankey]

What's the LML oil pump trick? And what's pro/con over the melling 316 pump?
Haven't really been keeping up since I took my LMM dually off the road in October '17 with cracked main web.

LML pump isn't a direct fit, you have to either machine the oil pump body/cut a rib out of your upper oil pan/cut your windage tray in half/run an LML pickup tube OR you have to run the LML pans/cover etc and shim your accessory brackets out to match the new belt plane.

The benefit to a pinned & shimmed GM pump over a Melling M316 is quality. Melling's QC process seems to be extremely hit or miss.

 

[malibu795]

What has been failing on the melling 316?

 

[Bdsankey]

What has been failing on the melling 316?

It's Melling's quality control. Their machining/finish and tolerances have been inconsistent. This is coming from places like SoCal and DHD where they would buy them in mass quantities and return a fair amount of them due to those types of issues.

I've isntalled 2x Melling M316 pumps and haven't had an issue yet but have moved away from them due to those reports. Dimensionally the gears are the same between the 01-10 GM pump and the M316. The M316's case is made out of steel if I believe whereas the GM pumps are aluminum bodied.

 

[malibu795]

Been putting melling 316 in on builds and rebuilds since 07-08 .. I'm familiar with at least what they were.
90% of my dmax adventure is documented here, compD and the dieselplace

 

[Chevy1925]

Shimming the oil pumps pressure relief valve will only increase oil pressure beyond where it was popping open before but wont increase volume. you have to mod the actual pump or change the gear ratio to increase oil volume.

 

[malibu795]

In which the increase volume through same orfice increases system pressure.

James I honestly don't know what a stock pump would do if the pump relief valve was plugged/blocked

 

[Chevy1925]

In which the increase volume through same orfice increases system pressure.

James I honestly don't know what a stock pump would do if the pump relief valve was plugged/blocked

well right but we arent applying any of that in an area where we need it. if we want to increase pressure/volume, its generally needed from idle on up to match new clearances and race applications. otherwise i just see it overworking the oil for no reason and putting more heat in it.

i dont either, probably make well north of 100psi when hot and at 3-4k rpm if the front cover bypass is closed. someone should test that front oil pressure relief in the front cover. i can understand 100psi when oil is cold because it cant bypass the oil enough through the orifice but when hot, even the high output melling's ive installed dont see over 65psi with bearing clearances in the .0015-.002 area on 15w40 so makes me wonder if thats its pressure point?

 

[malibu795]

well right but we arent applying any of that in an area where we need it. if we want to increase pressure/volume, its generally needed from idle on up to match new clearances and race applications. otherwise i just see it overworking the oil for no reason and putting more heat in it.

i dont either, probably make well north of 100psi when hot and at 3-4k rpm if the front cover bypass is closed. someone should test that front oil pressure relief in the front cover. i can understand 100psi when oil is cold because it cant bypass the oil enough through the orifice but when hot, even the high output melling's ive installed dont see over 65psi with bearing clearances in the .0015-.002 area on 15w40 so makes me wonder if thats its pressure point?

I called melling and talked to Bryan seams the "current" M316 are SP/SV And the enteral relief is around 60psi..

I've seen 5-10psi drop from oil temps while either climbing grades or high sail loads with a head wind
Personally feel better with a 5-10psi drop from 60 vs 30 .

I'm pretty I have all the old oil pumps plus couple old M316s.. don't really have a way to check relief pressure, though can check gear sizes

Im

 

[kidturbo]

What's the LML oil pump trick? And what's pro/con over the melling 316 pump?
Haven't really been keeping up since I took my LMM dually off the road in October '17 with cracked main web.

Yeah as stated above, the LML pump is an advance cut-to-fit machining job. Hand rolled design that a GM tech buddy and I came up with while back. The LML had a good bit larger Round pickup tube, along with a pump that uses thicker gears, IE more volume / capacity. This change came with the larger LML squirters, and is main reason we could find GM upgraded.

The windage tray mod is the easy part on the LMM pan approach. But not bad if you can find an LML oil pan and front cover together, because those won't mix match with LBZ/LMM hardware. If running the LMM pans and cover, you need to modify the pump body and shaft to clear LMM reluctor ring and front cover. I have 3 marine engines out there with it. First one LBZ running LML pan and front cover, other 2 we machined the pump to fit. All 3 doing well 5 years later.

I once questioned the reasoning behind this pump change, until I saw how my friends do a 5.9L C marine oiling system. They start out with a 10 - 15 gallon pan, 12AN pickups in the bottom, feeding a 3 stage external gear driven dry sump style pump. Yes 3x 12AN feed lines, compared to our singe 12AN setups. And the reason for all that oil, piston cooling. They run steel pistons with oil cooling squirters that ya can stick 4 LMM squirters inside of 1.. Baddest 5.9L C on the market in my book. Also costing more than two new Denali trucks.. But it's solid as a rock.

 

[Gentrysgarage]

So many great replies! Thanks!

I called melling and talked to Bryan seams the "current" M316 are SP/SV And the enteral relief is around 60psi..

I've seen 5-10psi drop from oil temps while either climbing grades or high sail loads with a head wind
Personally feel better with a 5-10psi drop from 60 vs 30 .

I'm pretty I have all the old oil pumps plus couple old M316s.. don't really have a way to check relief pressure, though can check gear sizes

Im

Almost all of the engines I have built in past have had two musts and that was Cloyes timing set and Melling high volume pump. I am sad to hear that Bdsankey and Chevy1925 have had issues with them, as even great companies do from time to time. I am happy that you haven't had any trouble, did Bryan say what the specs for volume and pressure where for the current M316?

[B]Bdsankey[/B]​

Yeah as stated above, the LML pump is an advance cut-to-fit machining job. Hand rolled design that a GM tech buddy and I came up with while back. The LML had a good bit larger Round pickup tube, along with a pump that uses thicker gears, IE more volume / capacity. This change came with the larger LML squirters, and is main reason we could find GM upgraded.

The windage tray mod is the easy part on the LMM pan approach. But not bad if you can find an LML oil pan and front cover together, because those won't mix match with LBZ/LMM hardware. If running the LMM pans and cover, you need to modify the pump body and shaft to clear LMM reluctor ring and front cover. I have 3 marine engines out there with it. First one LBZ running LML pan and front cover, other 2 we machined the pump to fit. All 3 doing well 5 years later.

I once questioned the reasoning behind this pump change, until I saw how my friends do a 5.9L C marine oiling system. They start out with a 10 - 15 gallon pan, 12AN pickups in the bottom, feeding a 3 stage external gear driven dry sump style pump. Yes 3x 12AN feed lines, compared to our singe 12AN setups. And the reason for all that oil, piston cooling. They run steel pistons with oil cooling squirters that ya can stick 4 LMM squirters inside of 1.. Baddest 5.9L C on the market in my book. Also costing more than two new Denali trucks.. But it's solid as a rock.

Kidturbo to clarify, on the "other 2" did you just machine the pump to fit a stock LBZ/LMM cover? If so do you have pictures? Thanks!

 

[kidturbo]

Thought I put all the pics up here somewhere, but this is only one I found.
Basically clearance the pump about 0.120" behind the crank reluctor ring, and cut end off the gear shaft so it will clear the cover. Slight notch on the pan edge and done.. That said, we also learned the gear shaft from an older pump, should fit as replacement in a LML pump and save cutting the shaft.

My only concern was impact to the pump housing by thinning it, but since I've spun those engines close to 6k dozens of times and they haven't cracked, will call it good. Don't take my 0.120" as the gospel ether, that number just pupped into my head as relevant to the task. It was trial fit, disassemble the pump, machine, assemble, fit, trim.. Main thing is the reluctor doesn't touch, and your good.

P.S. There is two other important mods in that picture I will add to the list of should do.. Who can spot them?

LML - oil pump conversion info....

Gotcha. Very good info! Thank you for taking the time to share! I assume that there is no clearance issues between the damper and the front cover after you move the damper closer to the cover like your describing? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

www.duramaxdiesels.com

 

[Gentrysgarage]

P.S. There is two other important mods in that picture I will add to the list of should do.. Who can spot them?

LML - oil pump conversion info....

Gotcha. Very good info! Thank you for taking the time to share! I assume that there is no clearance issues between the damper and the front cover after you move the damper closer to the cover like your describing? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

www.duramaxdiesels.com

I am new to Duramaxs could you tell a noob like me what the other two mods are? Thanks