Anybody run a LLY VVT turbo with a waste-gate actuator controlling the vanes?

Gentrysgarage

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In my quest to build as close to a traditional mechanical Duramax diesel (aside from popping for a Mercedes P7100 $$$$ pump that is) I was wondering if anybody tried to run an LLY turbo with a tunable waste-gate actuator. If so how did you do it? Thanks
 

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In my quest to build as close to a traditional mechanical Duramax diesel (aside from popping for a Mercedes P7100 $$$$ pump that is) I was wondering if anybody tried to run an LLY turbo with a tunable waste-gate actuator. If so how did you do it? Thanks
You could also run a mechanical DPS "turbonator" housing on a S300 or S400 should you desire. I personally have not seen a mechanical VGT drop in for 04.5-16. If you're going to be running an ECM what is the downside or negative of running an electronically controlled VGT?
 

Gentrysgarage

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Thanks Bdsankey for the lead, at least I know I am not alon in this quest, just hoping for a cheaper solution. As far as ECM goes, I am looking into using a non-Duramax ECM (with the minimum number of points as possible) when I get a little more research and more of a concrete idea I will post it up for discussion.
 

2004LB7

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Are you still planning on running Duramax injectors? Cam or cank sensors?
 

Dallas S

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12v swap…

Is this just for a fun time waister or for practical use? You could look at 2011-14 6.7 powerstroke turbine housings
 

Bdsankey

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Thanks Bdsankey for the lead, at least I know I am not alon in this quest, just hoping for a cheaper solution. As far as ECM goes, I am looking into using a non-Duramax ECM (with the minimum number of points as possible) when I get a little more research and more of a concrete idea I will post it up for discussion.
No matter what you're going to be using a duramax ECM will be FAR cheaper than any standalone aftermarket ECM. To my knowledge the only ECUs powerful enough to run these injectors are Bosch Motorsport and MoTec. Bosch is cheaper at I believe the 10-15k area where a MoTec is ~20-30k from what I recall talking to S&S about one for a customer.

You can do a Duramax standalone system for around $1000-$1500 by the time you make/buy the harness, pay for an ECM file for the OEM ECM (if you don't know how to create one) and any ancillary components.
 
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buick455

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No matter what you're going to be using a duramax ECM will be FAR cheaper than any standalone aftermarket ECM. To my knowledge the only ECUs powerful enough to run these injectors are Bosch Motorsport and MoTec. Bosch is cheaper at I believe the 10-15k area where a MoTec is ~20-30k from what I recall talking to S&S about one for a customer.

You can do a Duramax standalone system for around $1000-$1500 by the time you make/buy the harness, pay for an ECM file for the OEM ECM (if you don't know how to create one) and any ancillary components.
My understanding was opposite as far as motec vs bosch. I thought the motec ecu was quite a bit cheaper than bosch but I could be wrong. But idk if you can even order a "new" bosch as of right now can you?
 

Bdsankey

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My understanding was opposite as far as motec vs bosch. I thought the motec ecu was quite a bit cheaper than bosch but I could be wrong. But idk if you can even order a "new" bosch as of right now can you?
You can still get Bosch motorsport ECUs, a very close friend of mine just ordered an MS25 from Exergy for his billet block pulling truck. The MoTec setup is definitely more money compared to Bosch from what I've gathered speaking to both Exergy (I think they're the only integrator for Bosch for our applications?) and S&S (only MoTec integrator that I've seen on the diesel side).
 
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Gentrysgarage

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As far as ECM goes, I am looking into using a non-Duramax ECM (with the minimum number of points as possible) when I get a little more research and more of a concrete idea I will post it up for discussion.
Like I said above, I was hoping to research a little before bringing up the ECM issue, but I myself let the cat out of the bag. I even had a long winded background reply typed out that I just erased (might put it on the post when I make a dedicated thread..kinda like a history lesson of my first encounter with deep car electronics). I am still researching, but all your relies posted here has helped my creative juices THANKS!

QUESTION: I have been looking for a couple of days for the electronic specs of the Duramax injectors and only finding ohm values, does anybody know where I can find them or have them?
I think I have read that there is 2 brands of ECMs. Is there any differences between those specs for the later Bosch ECMs and the earlier Delco ECMs (aside from the different reluctor wheels)?

Are you still planning on running Duramax injectors? Cam or crank sensors?
I am hoping to not go crazy with the injectors and want to use Bosch. Most probably crank sensor as the cam is gear driven and there shouldn't be the need to have a checksum like a chain driven cam and I am not planning see 10K (or even 5.5K for that matter)RPMs . But it mainly depends on what will be needed for the particular ECM and what reluctor wheel it needs.
Why not run an LB7 turbo?
I might, just since I gave up on 6-71 blowers early on and embraced turbos, I always wondered how to defeat turbo lag and the best answer came they introduced the VVT and have always wanted to try them, just wanting to remove as many programming points as possible with making it pneumatic/mechanical controlled.
12v swap…
NOT even considered, I have plenty of 12Vs laying around I want to try something new and the Dmax is a sweet looking engine once you uncover it!
Is this just for a fun time waster or for practical use? You could look at 2011-14 6.7 powerstroke turbine housings
It's to be a work truck till well beyond I die, even if it gets to a "Red Barchetta" era. I will look at the PS turbos,Thanks!
No matter what you're going to be using a duramax ECM will be FAR cheaper than any standalone aftermarket ECM. To my knowledge the only ECUs powerful enough to run these injectors are Bosch Motorsport and MoTec. Bosch is cheaper at I believe the 10-15k area where a MoTec is ~20-30k from what I recall talking to S&S about one for a customer.

You can do a Duramax standalone system for around $1000-$1500 by the time you make/buy the harness, pay for an ECM file for the OEM ECM (if you don't know how to create one) and any ancillary components.
Thanks again Bdsankey for your sharing of your knowledge! I think I have an answer to the power needed for the injectors, but it is still to early to share plus I need to research the specs of the injectors and the various non-conventional ECMs I am looking at. You are completely correct that the normal aftermarket Diesel ECMs are VERY $$$$ and I would rather put that money into the engine and hope it lasts longer than the 400k these 2 engines lasted combined.

One of the things I want to eliminate is the checksum system between the modules (and the excess modules for that matter), the stupid excess wires/sensors (do we really need a hood latch sensor?) and the way the factory engineers worked hard to overcomplicate even the simple things like how they made one brake pedal sensor routed to the BCM just so it is harder to eliminate it.

I will fully bench race this down to the cent till I drop a single dime, as the bottom line/deciding factor will be $$$'s. Even though I have programmed in binary/hexadecimal in a previous life, I think there is an easier way. I might end up with a tuned factory ECM, but I think there is another way and will explore it.

Again Thanks for the replies it all helps!
 

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I don't mean to sound like a dick or anything, but it really seems like you're overcomplicating things for the sake of being different. To answer your question, it would be possible to manually control the VGT section manually, but it seems to me like it would be way more trouble than it is worth. It would take blocking off some oil passages and hooking up a linkage to the piston that operates the VGT vanes. As far as the injectors go, the resistance isn't the issue. The problem you have is the voltage required to operate them. I don't know what you have in mind, but if you're thinking of using some sort of aftermarket gas ECM like a Holley Terminator or something from FuelTech, not only do they likely not have the capacity to fire the injectors, but they probably don't have the capability to control fuel rail pressure either.
 

Bdsankey

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Like I said above, I was hoping to research a little before bringing up the ECM issue, but I myself let the cat out of the bag. I even had a long winded background reply typed out that I just erased (might put it on the post when I make a dedicated thread..kinda like a history lesson of my first encounter with deep car electronics). I am still researching, but all your relies posted here has helped my creative juices THANKS!

QUESTION: I have been looking for a couple of days for the electronic specs of the Duramax injectors and only finding ohm values, does anybody know where I can find them or have them?
I think I have read that there is 2 brands of ECMs. Is there any differences between those specs for the later Bosch ECMs and the earlier Delco ECMs (aside from the different reluctor wheels)?


I am hoping to not go crazy with the injectors and want to use Bosch. Most probably crank sensor as the cam is gear driven and there shouldn't be the need to have a checksum like a chain driven cam and I am not planning see 10K (or even 5.5K for that matter)RPMs . But it mainly depends on what will be needed for the particular ECM and what reluctor wheel it needs.

I might, just since I gave up on 6-71 blowers early on and embraced turbos, I always wondered how to defeat turbo lag and the best answer came they introduced the VVT and have always wanted to try them, just wanting to remove as many programming points as possible with making it pneumatic/mechanical controlled.

NOT even considered, I have plenty of 12Vs laying around I want to try something new and the Dmax is a sweet looking engine once you uncover it!

It's to be a work truck till well beyond I die, even if it gets to a "Red Barchetta" era. I will look at the PS turbos,Thanks!

Thanks again Bdsankey for your sharing of your knowledge! I think I have an answer to the power needed for the injectors, but it is still to early to share plus I need to research the specs of the injectors and the various non-conventional ECMs I am looking at. You are completely correct that the normal aftermarket Diesel ECMs are VERY $$$$ and I would rather put that money into the engine and hope it lasts longer than the 400k these 2 engines lasted combined.

One of the things I want to eliminate is the checksum system between the modules (and the excess modules for that matter), the stupid excess wires/sensors (do we really need a hood latch sensor?) and the way the factory engineers worked hard to overcomplicate even the simple things like how they made one brake pedal sensor routed to the BCM just so it is harder to eliminate it.

I will fully bench race this down to the cent till I drop a single dime, as the bottom line/deciding factor will be $$$'s. Even though I have programmed in binary/hexadecimal in a previous life, I think there is an easier way. I might end up with a tuned factory ECM, but I think there is another way and will explore it.

Again Thanks for the replies it all helps!
What ECM options are you looking at that can power approximately 48-96V injector natively at 15-20A and properly control the common rail system that are less than ~$1500? It's very easy to get a standalone harness made for an 01-05 ECM (IE LB7 or LLY injectors). You can also get them made for LBZ/LMM as well and remove the FICM as a module.


As far as I've seen, the only two standalone diesel ECMs in existence that can power a common rail setup are the Bosch Motorsport system and the newer MoTec. Nothing from Holley, FuelTech, Micro/Megasquirt etc have the capability to drive the injectors nor can they properly control the fuel rail pressure. I know Wyatt (BoostedBoiz) was looking into FuelTech as they have a very close relationship with the FuelTech guys, FT essentially said no they cannot do it nor will they develop the system to do so as the market is extremely small.
 
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buick455

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One of my friends has a custom made ECM on his LB7 dedicated pull truck. The ECM was made by a local guy. It did burn up a few injector drivers in the testing stages, and they are replaceable in that unit, but it has ran great otherwise the last 2 seasons.
 

Bdsankey

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One of my friends has a custom made ECM on his LB7 dedicated pull truck. The ECM was made by a local guy. It did burn up a few injector drivers in the testing stages, and they are replaceable in that unit, but it has ran great otherwise the last 2 seasons.
Keep in mind what happens when that guy doesn't make them anymore. E54/E60/E35A will be around for awhile and will always have a used market. What happens when Erick the ECM guy dies, who's going to repair anything?
 

2004LB7

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I wonder if speeduino could be made to work. Would likely need an external mosfet to control the injector current but I would imagine that would be relatively easy
 

buick455

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Keep in mind what happens when that guy doesn't make them anymore. E54/E60/E35A will be around for awhile and will always have a used market. What happens when Erick the ECM guy dies, who's going to repair anything?
Oh, I'm well aware. The op seems like he's looking outside the box per say so I'm just saying it is possible with available parts on the market. That said, I'm not going that route and mine has been a mostly dedicated puller for quite a few years. Factory ECM here.
 
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Gentrysgarage

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I don't mean to sound like a dick or anything, but it really seems like you're overcomplicating things for the sake of being different. To answer your question, it would be possible to manually control the VGT section manually, but it seems to me like it would be way more trouble than it is worth. It would take blocking off some oil passages and hooking up a linkage to the piston that operates the VGT vanes. As far as the injectors go, the resistance isn't the issue. The problem you have is the voltage required to operate them. I don't know what you have in mind, but if you're thinking of using some sort of aftermarket gas ECM like a Holley Terminator or something from FuelTech, not only do they likely not have the capacity to fire the injectors, but they probably don't have the capability to control fuel rail pressure either.
You're not sounding like a dick or anything I am asking and doing something unconventional, not just to be different (except for wanting to show the valve covers that is) It boils down to this statement by Bdsankey which is true:

Keep in mind what happens when that guy doesn't make them anymore. E54/E60/E35A will be around for awhile and will always have a used market. What happens when Erick the ECM guy dies, who's going to repair anything?
GM has totally forgotten the Arkus-Dontov letter and has followed Cummins in trying to shut down the "hot rodders". While Cummins made their motors weaker (you don't hear the same amount of praise for the 6.7 as you did the 12V especially in the longevity department) the 6.6 is a stout little motor and aside from the ridiculous penny pinching move of the crank and cam buttons and the invertant design failures (that they tried to address) and crank failures (which I attribute mostly to emission system and firing order (due to better tuning from the factory putting an extra load on the motor that it didn't have before...the straw that broke the camels back statement fits here. That being said, GM shut the hot rodders out by making the computers interdependent and incripted...yes they can be programed but how many people have you seen asking for help with their older tunes from the deleted era and how many tuners disappeared since then? What Bdsankey says above is true, but it also applies to factory ECMs also. There will come a time when they are hard to get and fewer and fewer will will repair them especially when the oscilloscope operators have all died off. I am looking for an easy to program ECM that will be available well into the future. Just look at how many people repair the 7.3 PS comps one? two? The other problem (getting back to the Arkus-Duntov memo is how many manufacturers of hard internal high performance parts are there 3 maybe 4? The market is small again refer to the memo. Chrysler forshadowed the future with what it did with the vastly superior Hemi and priced it out of the normal young hot rodders hands so which was the more prevelant swap a SBC or BBC or Hemi swap? To sum up I am not just tring to be different, I am trying to do a build on the cheap, 1 because I have limited funds and 2 to build interest in this motor as a swap candidate, to help bring some enthusiasm and interest to this motor. Also to find a readily available ECM that will be available alot longer than I think the factory Dmax ones will be around. The more demand the more parts, but if it is too hard why bother and just do the boring 12V swap. I am not boring so I will work on this and try to come up with a solution.
As far as I've seen, the only two standalone diesel ECMs in existence that can power a common rail setup are the Bosch Motorsport system and the newer MoTec. Nothing from Holley, FuelTech, Micro/Megasquirt etc have the capability to drive the injectors nor can they properly control the fuel rail pressure. I know Wyatt (BoostedBoiz) was looking into FuelTech as they have a very close relationship with the FuelTech guys, FT essentially said no they cannot do it nor will they develop the system to do so as the market is extremely small.
Again I am trying to find a much cheaper and readily available ECM

One of my friends has a custom made ECM on his LB7 dedicated pull truck. The ECM was made by a local guy. It did burn up a few injector drivers in the testing stages, and they are replaceable in that unit, but it has ran great otherwise the last 2 seasons.
Very cool, like to know I am not alone, but trying not to make it not custom...well for the most part.
I wonder if speeduino could be made to work. Would likely need an external mosfet to control the injector current but I would imagine that would be relatively easy
2004 LB7 we are on the same page! Though I was unaware of speeduino, I am guessing an arduino for cars, I will research as this might be a cheaper than the ECM I was looking at. And as far as the MOSFET goes I was actually looking into a more archaic driver system so Thanks I hadn't considered them!

Oh, I'm well aware. The op seems like he's looking outside the box per say so I'm just saying it is possible with available parts on the market. That said, I'm not going that route and mine has been a mostly dedicated puller for quite a few years. Factory ECM here.

Thanks Buick455 I am.

I am beginning to think we should get a mod to change the thread title as it mostly has to deal with ECMs rather than VVT turbos? What are some of your suggestions, now now make it nice fellas! LOL!
 

Gentrysgarage

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I changed something in the BB code above and it got screwy around Bsankeys post below and my reply:
What ECM options are you looking at that can power approximately 48-96V injector natively at 15-20A and properly control the common rail system that are less than ~$1500? It's very easy to get a standalone harness made for an 01-05 ECM (IE LB7 or LLY injectors). You can also get them made for LBZ/LMM as well and remove the FICM as a module.
Thank You as always Bsankey, these are the numbers I am looking for so I can start piecing the puzzle together. Also if I fail or it becomes to unfeasible/looking to delicate my plan B will be 01-05 ECM as it doesn't need to be have all the ancillary modules programed out.

I also noted that I failed to comment on this part of JoshH's comment.
but they probably don't have the capability to control fuel rail pressure either.
Can you elaborate on this? Why does the fuel pressure need to be controlled, why not have the pressure needed/set for the max RPMs you plan to have it run at and just do a regulated return? At most wouldn't you just need a larger fuel cooler if the fuel heats up to much at lower rpms..or am I missing something?
 

Bdsankey

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I changed something in the BB code above and it got screwy around Bsankeys post below and my reply:

Thank You as always Bsankey, these are the numbers I am looking for so I can start piecing the puzzle together. Also if I fail or it becomes to unfeasible/looking to delicate my plan B will be 01-05 ECM as it doesn't need to be have all the ancillary modules programed out.

I also noted that I failed to comment on this part of JoshH's comment.

Can you elaborate on this? Why does the fuel pressure need to be controlled, why not have the pressure needed/set for the max RPMs you plan to have it run at and just do a regulated return? At most wouldn't you just need a larger fuel cooler if the fuel heats up to much at lower rpms..or am I missing something?
You can't run around at 26,000psi+ of rail pressure 24/7, the fuel system will not survive long term. The hammering effect on components will be too great from what I've learned talking to companies like DDP, S&S, and Exergy.
 
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