2.5 class allow aftermarket headers??

Brassfield

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Trying to figure out the general rule out there on what's considered legal in the 2.5 class, most rules say stock appearing engines, some say dual cp3's allowed but most don't mention anything towards the exhaust in that area. How do most associations tech on this matter?
 

Brassfield

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Right, that's all I normally seen in the rules. I didn't know if any techs had given anyone crap about them. Was just wanting to make sure before I order my set
 

Brassfield

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I'm the tech for our small organization and the guy in another place we pull with said it doesn't specifically mention them so it was ok. Just trying to figure on what I was up against in general if we travel north or east this year. Thanks
 

Leadfoot

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Sorry, but that's funny :D I seen many rules change or interpitation or intent of a rule non written rule. Always remember "He who makes the rules....wins"

I agree. If you wrote a rulebook for a street or 2.5 class listing all the things you could or couldn't do, it would make the bible look like light reading. It is supposed to be up to the tech officials to make sure any and all modifications (if not expressly written) follow the intent of the class. Sadly that is not always done, as most times even the techs are more concerned with the black and white letters than what the rules actually are for or mean.

I know locally the mentallity of "If it's not in the rules, it's legal", often gets people in trouble and carrying a lighter wallet. Innovation is great, being "sneaky" is not.
 

Brassfield

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I wrote our rules to match a close association that pulls nearby. I asked them this same question and the tech said it's not written specifically in there. Im just trying to get a general awnser on the question.
 
Oct 16, 2008
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I agree. If you wrote a rulebook for a street or 2.5 class listing all the things you could or couldn't do, it would make the bible look like light reading. It is supposed to be up to the tech officials to make sure any and all modifications (if not expressly written) follow the intent of the class. Sadly that is not always done, as most times even the techs are more concerned with the black and white letters than what the rules actually are for or mean.

I know locally the mentallity of "If it's not in the rules, it's legal", often gets people in trouble and carrying a lighter wallet. Innovation is great, being "sneaky" is not.

Sorry but I don't agree at all. Rulebooks are just that, rules against what you can't do. If it's not listed and doesn't directly violate the written rules, it's legal until the rules are changed the following season or whenever was agreed upon when they were written. Ever look at an NHRA rule book? It's not even 1/2" thick for every single class NHRA has and they have considerably than diesel pulling and diesel drag racing combined. Those unwritten gray areas are what breed more rules. Until then it's open season on anything not in the rules IMO.
 

Leadfoot

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Sorry but I don't agree at all. Rulebooks are just that, rules against what you can't do. If it's not listed and doesn't directly violate the written rules, it's legal until the rules are changed the following season or whenever was agreed upon when they were written. Ever look at an NHRA rule book? It's not even 1/2" thick for every single class NHRA has and they have considerably than diesel pulling and diesel drag racing combined. Those unwritten gray areas are what breed more rules. Until then it's open season on anything not in the rules IMO.

My buddy's rulebook is pretty darn thick with small type, but the yearly updates/amendments are fairly thin. He's been turned away for things not explicitly stated in the rulebook. Next time I see him I'll see if I can get specifics but I know he was bitching because there was nothing saying you couldn't do it.

Just the section on General Regulations:
http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/2014 Rule Book General Regulations_120413.pdf

Just one example of yearly amendments:
http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/2014 Rule Book Amendments 2-18-14.pdf

Pretty in depth

Example of what I'm talking about:
A truck pulling rule may state Nitrous Oxide is illegal, but someone may try to use Nitrogen Dioxide as it isn't expressly prohibited, or some other chemical compound. Technically (and in "legal speak") that's true, but "Nitrous Oxide" itself is not the issue. The intent of the rule is to keep any Oxygen extenders out (even though that is not how the rule is stated), if you try to use an Oxygen extender (even if it's not "Nitrous Oxide") it will be considered illegal even without being specifically prohibited. People get too caught up in the black and white and miss the actual intent.

It's like a friend telling you not to drive your car home because you're drunk, but you then take his car home instead. Technically you didn't drive "your car" home. It was never about "your car", but that's what was focused on. That's what guys try to do with truck pulling rules. Either they completely miss the intent, or recognize the intent but use wording to knowingly bypass it and try to justify it (I think it helps them sleep at night or makes them feel like they outsmarted someone).

Innovation shouldn't be squandered, but purposely bypassing intent due to "wording" or lack thereof should not be tolerated (although it is quite a bit). Hopefully I'm making sense, it's not about stopping overall creativity, it's about doing away with being creative to "bypass a rule".
 
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PACougar

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Jun 27, 2012
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My buddy's rulebook is pretty darn thick with small type, but the yearly updates/amendments are fairly thin. He's been turned away for things not explicitly stated in the rulebook. Next time I see him I'll see if I can get specifics but I know he was bitching because there was nothing saying you couldn't do it.

Just the section on General Regulations:
http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/2014 Rule Book General Regulations_120413.pdf

Just one example of yearly amendments:
http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/2014 Rule Book Amendments 2-18-14.pdf

Pretty in depth

Example of what I'm talking about:
A truck pulling rule may state Nitrous Oxide is illegal, but someone may try to use Nitrogen Dioxide as it isn't expressly prohibited, or some other chemical compound. Technically (and in "legal speak") that's true, but "Nitrous Oxide" itself is not the issue. The intent of the rule is to keep any Oxygen extenders out (even though that is not how the rule is stated), if you try to use an Oxygen extender (even if it's not "Nitrous Oxide") it will be considered illegal even without being specifically prohibited. People get too caught up in the black and white and miss the actual intent.

It's like a friend telling you not to drive your car home because you're drunk, but you then take his car home instead. Technically you didn't drive "your car" home. It was never about "your car", but that's what was focused on. That's what guys try to do with truck pulling rules. Either they completely miss the intent, or recognize the intent but use wording to knowingly bypass it and try to justify it (I think it helps them sleep at night or makes them feel like they outsmarted someone).

Innovation shouldn't be squandered, but purposely bypassing intent due to "wording" or lack thereof should not be tolerated (although it is quite a bit). Hopefully I'm making sense, it's not about stopping overall creativity, it's about doing away with being creative to "bypass a rule".

To me that seems a bit silly, if the intent of the rule is to not allow any injectables then say so rather than saying no nitrous. If someone brings something to the game that everyone else believes is unfair but within the rules, amend the rules. I feel like finding ways to read between the lines is innovation, have you seen the new nose wing on Lotus's F1 car this year. My point is rules can always be updated. I'd be impressed to see someone show up with a nitrous dioxide setup:)
 
Oct 16, 2008
948
12
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Idaho
My buddy's rulebook is pretty darn thick with small type, but the yearly updates/amendments are fairly thin. He's been turned away for things not explicitly stated in the rulebook. Next time I see him I'll see if I can get specifics but I know he was bitching because there was nothing saying you couldn't do it.

Just the section on General Regulations:
http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/2014 Rule Book General Regulations_120413.pdf

Just one example of yearly amendments:
http://www.nhra.com/userfiles/file/2014 Rule Book Amendments 2-18-14.pdf

Pretty in depth

Example of what I'm talking about:
A truck pulling rule may state Nitrous Oxide is illegal, but someone may try to use Nitrogen Dioxide as it isn't expressly prohibited, or some other chemical compound. Technically (and in "legal speak") that's true, but "Nitrous Oxide" itself is not the issue. The intent of the rule is to keep any Oxygen extenders out (even though that is not how the rule is stated), if you try to use an Oxygen extender (even if it's not "Nitrous Oxide") it will be considered illegal even without being specifically prohibited. People get too caught up in the black and white and miss the actual intent.

It's like a friend telling you not to drive your car home because you're drunk, but you then take his car home instead. Technically you didn't drive "your car" home. It was never about "your car", but that's what was focused on. That's what guys try to do with truck pulling rules. Either they completely miss the intent, or recognize the intent but use wording to knowingly bypass it and try to justify it (I think it helps them sleep at night or makes them feel like they outsmarted someone).

Innovation shouldn't be squandered, but purposely bypassing intent due to "wording" or lack thereof should not be tolerated (although it is quite a bit). Hopefully I'm making sense, it's not about stopping overall creativity, it's about doing away with being creative to "bypass a rule".

The general regulations cover the car's safety specifications front to back. 46 pages isn't exactly monstrous when you consider how long nhra has been around and been having to amend rules to fill in the gaps.

I agree with PACougar, if an organization doesn't want something to be allowed they should say it. The thorough intent of the rule should be clearly stated in the writing of the rules. You can't say "no nitrous oxide allowed" then when someone shows up with another oxygen extender that isn't in the rules as prohibited then say "well, you know why we meant". It should be written "no oxygen extenders, nitrous oxide, dioxide, nitromethane, vortex tubes, etc. anything not listed but considered an oxygen extender is prohibited." Pretty simple. If wording is an issue, it's up to the organizations to fill in any loopholes created by that, not the competitors .
 

Leadfoot

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I absolutely understand where you are coming from, and do believe rules should be stated much better in certain circumstances even with "elite" national level organizations, but I don't think that is a cure.

The problem is those creating/writing the rules are "tech guys" and like minded individuals. They are not literary scholars or lawyers so exact wording will probably never happen. For those of us who have tried to sit down and write rules (and then get questioned by every Tom, Dick, and Harry), it becomes quite obvious the process of creating rules/rulebook would be an arduous task. That is where the rules makers give guidelines (rulebooks) and the techs are supposed to be making informed decisions on those rules (many national orgs require tech officials to complete a course), which is why most will say tech official's ruling is final.

Pullers are like kids, they don't like being told what to do. You can explicitly tell your child to be in bed by 10PM, but then at 10:30PM when he or she is not in bed and you ask why, they'll state you never said if it was Eastern time, Central time, Mountain time, Pacific time, or if it was even adjusted for Daily Saving time etc. Just as in truck pulling rules, when rules are written certain things are assumed (such as current time zone and current DST standing in the previous example), and that is how they are expected to be followed yet pullers (who didn't make the rules) will argue. This "type" of thing happens in pulling all the time, and it happens even more when the guys enforcing the rules are not the ones who wrote them, so the intent is missed even by the tech, which then makes it even more confusing for the pullers. Once you open the door to one scenario, it opens the door to many others and it snowballs. One puller pushes the issue on hitch design because of the wording and a wishy washy tech who doesn't understand the intent and allows something that shouldn't be, and another puller then decides to push the issue on turbo restrictions, etc. etc.

I used a non-truck pulling analogy as often times picking a certain truck pulling rule tends to get people focused on the rule rather than the scenario.

And trust me when I say, I used to think the same way when I started pulling especially when I was trying to pick the rules apart for my own agenda (not knowing who wrote the rules or why they did as they did, and often times saying "I think this is what they meant by this or that"), but after getting involved in rules discussions, rules writing, and ultimately rules enforcement, it has greatly changed my way of thinking especially when it comes to the betterment of the sport overall. We have at times worded rules very definitively and as descriptive as possible and asked many people for their input before putting out the rule in writing in hopes to avoid any misunderstanding, but yet after publishing those rules will still have a puller argue what should or shouldn't be allowed. More writing tends to make longer rules, not necessarily better ones. It shouldn't necessarily come down to exact wording (although a decent wording to start helps), it needs to come down to those creating the rules must educate and have people enforce them as was intended. If the intent of the rules isn't going to be followed, the rules mean nothing anyway.... Just because a puller reads a rule and thinks it means one thing, doesn't necessarily mean he's right. (Edit: I'm not saying he's necessarily wrong either or can't try something new if it follows within the intent of the class).


The general regulations cover the car's safety specifications front to back. 46 pages isn't exactly monstrous when you consider how long nhra has been around and been having to amend rules to fill in the gaps.

I agree with PACougar, if an organization doesn't want something to be allowed they should say it. Over time you would create the bible I was talking about and is the reason many orgs don't (too much $$$ to print each time there is a "revision". If something is blatant it will often getting expressly written but many smaller nuances don't The thorough intent of the rule should be clearly stated in the writing of the rules. You can't say "no nitrous oxide allowed" then when someone shows up with another oxygen extender that isn't in the rules as prohibited then say "well, you know why we meant".Having been there and done that, you'll get somebody who either doesn't know what an "oxygen extender" is or that Nitrous Oxide is even considered an oxygen extender, or you'll get the guy that argues what an oxygen extender really is It should be written "no oxygen extenders, nitrous oxide, dioxide, nitromethane, vortex tubes, etc. anything not listed but considered an oxygen extender is prohibited." Pretty simple. If wording is an issue, it's up to the organizations to fill in any loopholes created by that, not the competitors .That's exactly where educated tech officials are supposed to come in, but we know that term educated tech official (even in prominent orgs) can be an oxymoron. Even writing a 10000 page rulebook won't keep somebody from questioning something

What you're saying is easy to say, tough to do. Even what I'm saying is easy to say and tough to do, but done right it won't scare pullers off (by having to look at a 10000 page rulebook when you have to spell each scenario out and what is/isn't allowed), will keep the class focused within the intent, and fair.
 
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Leadfoot

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To me that seems a bit silly, if the intent of the rule is to not allow any injectables then say so rather than saying no nitrous. If someone brings something to the game that everyone else believes is unfair but within the rules, amend the rules. I feel like finding ways to read between the lines is innovation, have you seen the new nose wing on Lotus's F1 car this year. My point is rules can always be updated. I'd be impressed to see someone show up with a nitrous dioxide setup:)

Unfortunately Nitrous Dioxide is a better chemical bond (less free Oxygen), which is why it isn't used, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make and I think you know that.
 

MAXX IT OUT

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Dang someone spent to much time writing this down......if the tech has the final say, then make the rules cut and dry.....if you don't want people to use n2o and things like that, then say no injectable but water meth. If someone doesn't pass tech, they don't pull. Going back to the beginnings of this thread, if it is not in the rules if you can or can't run aftermarket manifolds or headers, get them then.
 

Brassfield

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Jan 14, 2014
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Most organizations list no nitrous, water, propane or any other injectables. Back to the point of the headers I went ahead and ordered a set so I guess I'll be finding out if anywhere turns them down but hopefully not