Water Pump Danger.

1slow01Z71

Wannabe EFILive Tuner
FWIW Meziere has come out with some badass stuff over the last couple years. I dont know when the last time any of you looked but the street pumps they have for the GENIIIs are doing just fine even in stroker motor heavy truck applications running the factory radiator. Id venture to bet some of their current offerings would work just fine if you wanted to go to all the trouble of remote mounting a pump, like Ive seen done on a lot of the motor plate cars. Regardless of how you want to put it as far as energy conversion goes, they have shown a solid 15rwhp gain on some of the higher singing motors. Not to mention getting rid of heat soak at the track with a set of electric fans, your entire cooling system is working without the heat of combustion. On my buddys heads and cam 5.3 it would go from operating temp down to 100 in less then 5 minutes.

The pulley spinning problem is on pretty much even GM vehicle, I would've figure ya'll would have found this problem a long time ago.
 
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super diesel

<<<< Under Pressure
I ended up just taking the pump apart and welding both sides (gear and impeller). Not worried about taking it back apart, because you have to replace the whole thing if it goes to pot. I feel better anyway. Put my ground on the gear its self Pat. The impeller is a tricky one too.
 
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Lonnie

Horsepower Addict
The whole premise about powering an electric water pump is a little misleading. They draw a bunch more power than you would think.

Most do not realize that 1hp = 746 watts, which at 13.5volts is 55amps per hp. So in reality, you need a 700amps to drive a 12hp electric pump that was mentioned above. This is at 100% efficiency & with no allowance for startup current. This means you may get by with a 1000amp alternator to just run the pump with a huge backup battery to supplement it & give it the power to startup.

Keep in mind, most engine starters are less than 2hp for comparison.
 

duramaximizer

#1 Abuse Enabler ;)
May 4, 2008
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FWIW Meziere has come out with some badass stuff over the last couple years. I dont know when the last time any of you looked but the street pumps they have for the GENIIIs are doing just fine even in stroker motor heavy truck applications running the factory radiator. Id venture to bet some of their current offerings would work just fine if you wanted to go to all the trouble of remote mounting a pump, like Ive seen done on a lot of the motor plate cars. Regardless of how you want to put it as far as energy conversion goes, they have shown a solid 15rwhp gain on some of the higher singing motors. Not to mention getting rid of heat soak at the track with a set of electric fans, your entire cooling system is working without the heat of combustion. On my buddys heads and cam 5.3 it would go from operating temp down to 100 in less then 5 minutes.

The pulley spinning problem is on pretty much even GM vehicle, I would've figure ya'll would have found this problem a long time ago.

Would a by-pass valve show a 10hp gain by just bleeding off the unnessary pressure the pump is putting out?

On Edit: (Only IF there is/was found to be unnessary additional pressure gennerated at high RPM?)
 
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Subman

Old Geezer
Jun 27, 2008
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Just had to go looking for this thread. This has happened twice to Max's Out. Start making a chirping sound, especially at idle and quit at higher RPM. Blades would start rubbing. last one spun clear off and we started to over heat at Phoenix. We replaced the first one with a NAPA cheapy, bought a GM one this time and will weld it. Think we'll take it to a machine shop and shorten the fins as well.
 

IdahoRob

New member
Jun 5, 2007
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I pic of what a waterpump gear can do to a block. No real damage, but doesn't look too nice.
 

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IdahoRob

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Jun 5, 2007
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The new one is welded up both ends and I'll be machining the fins down as Ken said. I feel a pressure relief is a great idea. Guy Tripp says he may have one in the works. I have played with the idea of an electric pump as the truck is now a track only rig, but would be nice to have a good fix for the dual purpose trucks.
 

IdahoRob

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Jun 5, 2007
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So I started to give this some thought. The second pump failed at the NHRDA finals in Boise in Oct. The temps that day were in the 40-50's and windy. I know the coolant temps never got up past 180 degrees before I wnet down the drag strip.

I believe the themstats were not opening at those temps, causing a major pressure backup which strained the pump as it was trying to push water through a dead headed system.

I did a bit of searching on the internet and found this;

Duramax dual thermostat and cooling system description and operation
Thermostats -6.6L Duramax Diesel Engine
Thermostats are coolant flow control components. The function of the thermostats is to regulate the correct operating temperature of the engine. Thermostats utilize a temperature sensitive wax-pellet element. The element connects to a valve through a piston. When the element is heated, it expands and exerts pressure against a rubber piston. This pressure forces the valve to open. As the element is cooled, it contracts. This contraction allows a spring to push the valve close.
The 6.6L diesel engine requires two thermostats for correct coolant flow. The front thermostat is a dual purpose thermostat. The front thermostat controls the coolant flow to the bypass port and to the water outlet which leads to the radiator. The rear thermostat only controls the coolant flow to the water outlet.
When the coolant temperature is cooler than the rated thermostat opening temperature the front thermostat valve remains closed to the water outlet (upper rad. hose)and is opened to the bypass port. So the bottom portion of the thermostat is raised off of the bypass port while at the same time the top portion closes the coolant flow to the radiator. The rear thermostat also is closed to the water outlet during engine warm-up. This prevents circulation of the coolant to the radiator and allows the engine to warm up quickly. After the coolant temperature reaches 82°C (180°F) the front thermostat primary valve opening temperature, the front thermostat primary valve will start to open. The coolant is then allowed to circulate through the thermostat and housing and into the radiator where the engine heat is dissipated to the atmosphere. As the engine coolant reaches 85°C (185°F) and more coolant demand is required the front thermostat secondary valve begins to close the bypass port and the rear thermostat begins to open and allows coolant to flow to the water outlet. The thermostats will continue to control the coolant flow by opening and closing. The front thermostat will be fully open when the coolant temperature reaches 95°C (203°F) the rear thermostat will be fully open when the coolant temperature reaches 100°C (212°F). The thermostats also provide a restriction in the cooling system, even after it has opened. This restriction creates a pressure difference which prevents cavitation at the water pump and forces coolant to circulate through the engine block. This data on temperatures is exclusive to factory supplied thermostats. It does not reflect temperature variations from higher rated thermostats
.

So now to figure out how to do away with the restiction on cold days with short notice calls to the lanes, still warm up the engine enough for saftey and good performance without a lot of idling. Early opening themostats would help(do they make any?)or removing the themostats completely and install restrictors(I may test this to see how warm-up is and how long).

Thoughts?
 

Kat

Wicked Witch of the West
Aug 2, 2006
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Pat lost a waterpump then started experimenting with various thermostats with the help of Jason LBZrcks. Our factory thermostats open too late for racing purposes. He found some other thermostats that open several times quicker.

I'll see if I can find the thread.

Edit- Here is thread

http://www.duramaxdiesels.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16512&highlight=thermostats

If anyone is interested I will order more of them. I currently don't have any on the self.
 

JoshH

Daggum farm truck
Staff member
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Feb 14, 2007
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Texas!!!
So now to figure out how to do away with the restiction on cold days with short notice calls to the lanes, still warm up the engine enough for saftey and good performance without a lot of idling. Early opening themostats would help(do they make any?)or removing the themostats completely and install restrictors(I may test this to see how warm-up is and how long).

Thoughts?
Rob, have you considered putting in some sort of bypass? On the passenger's side of the the flywheel housing (opposite where the coolant enters from the oil cooler) there is a plate that is bolted on to the side with two bolts that blocks the coolant from going across that passage. Maybe you could pull that plate, drill and tap it, install some sort of pressure relief valve, and plumb it to go into the large 1" hose that is on the bottom of the coolant surge thank (the big one that runs into the lower radiator hose that you have to extend when you move the tank for a set of twins). That would put the coolant in a loop when the pressure exceeded the pop-off valve setting. Seems like it would be pretty simple to set up, but I'm not sure it would work. I don't see why it wouldn't.
 

IdahoRob

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Jun 5, 2007
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Well, I pulled the pump off the 2nd engine that only has 25 or so passes on it (maybe 20 miles total) that has been sitting in the shop. Guess what. Brand new GM pump and it has the rear gear spun off grinding into the block also. Looks like the real deal here (not that I doubted the McRat crew) I'll be looking into the relief further, but as for now, I'll be installing those themostats. I installed the new pump with welded gear/impeller and modded down vanes. Should help.
 

sweetdiesel

That's better
Aug 6, 2006
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almost carnage

here is some pics of my water pump the gear was still intact however the other side has come loose and ground 30 thou off the cover and the fins are ground down over 125 thou

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Since ive pushed the impellar back on to where it should normally sit, ill now have over 150 thou clearance over a stock water pump and im not sure if that is going to be enough to cool the truck?
 

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sweetdiesel

That's better
Aug 6, 2006
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I cut overea .100 off the fins and cooling very well on some very quick passes.

Great info to know Rob thanks I'm going to clean up this pump an run it tigged and see how it works. By the tme I clean it up I suspect it will have a clearance of around 200 thou