LLY Ficm

DAVe3283

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If it's going to have a CPU fast enough to monitor everything, why not have it do the 90° delay too?

The programming wouldn't be trivial, but it's not insurmountable either. I've done embedded code with similar hard timing requirements before, but it's been a while. Might be fun to take a crack at it this winter.

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2004LB7

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If it's going to have a CPU fast enough to monitor everything, why not have it do the 90° delay too?

The programming wouldn't be trivial, but it's not insurmountable either. I've done embedded code with similar hard timing requirements before, but it's been a while. Might be fun to take a crack at it this winter.

Sent from my FlashScan V2 using Tapatalk
I was thinking more for simplicity and reliability. Pretty hard to have a PCB trace go bad. But processors can hang up, have code issues, sensitive to voltage fluctuations and spikes. Just one less thing to go wrong. We can still use one to monitor the circuits and report codes. But if the processor has issues it wouldn't leave you stranded on the side of the road. Just give you a code for lost communication or something similar.

Sure we can use an automotive grade processor and do hundreds of hours of testing to make sure the code is rock solid. But we don't need to
 

1FastBrick

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Ah yeah. Capture your Crank and Cam signals for me please. Just want a true blue live version of the LLY so we can set to rest the cam correlation deal for my emulator. Will be easy at the bail connector to find the 2 signal wires... Easy to identify, as crank and cam are both 3 wires Shielded with a ground wrap. But they split apart at the bail.

For bonus points, if you have a secondary pickup for your snapon, please snap that onto the #1 injector wires and see if it will read our pulses. Goal is to get a clean capture of Crank/Cam along with our #1 Injector in a live running environment . Then, we have a good reference for bench running tests. And a solid signal for our emulator.
Are you talking about this for capturing the pulses on the injector wire?

Snap On Ignition kit.jpg
 
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kidturbo

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Are you talking about this for capturing the pulses on the injector wire?

View attachment 118446
Yeah my buddies snapon kit is missing everything you pictured..

I was able to capture the signals above by connecting directly to the #1 injector power and command wires. However due to the way this system has 4 injectors and 1 power wire, ya can't single out, or get a clean pattern off just 1 injector. So was thinking using the Secondary ignition options to read the amps load, rather than voltage might give us a cleaner injector pulse. Have a couple old crank sensors laying around that I'm attemptint to make a 5v pickup for my little bench scope.
 
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kidturbo

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Is it possible to repin the output of the FUCM to switch around the control or command so the injector control that happens 90° to another piston being at TDC is triggered at the same time? Kinda like the alternate firing order cam except keeping the same firing order but picking up the control that is 90° after in order to fire the correct injector? Basically reclocking the control forward 90° thus no delay but still correct injector firing order

When the FICM is firing x injector, it is also receiving a control for firing the next injector at the same time. Since all the injection events are 90° apart and the delay is also 90° it should be possible to repin them so that the injector that is being fired is actually being triggered by the injector control that would normally be next in line.

Injector control #3 would fire injector #1, 1 to 3, 2 to 7 and so on.

I think it would be

3>1, 1>3, 2>7, 7>8, 8>4, 4>5, 5>6, 6>3

Basically shifting then all down one

Does this make sense?
Besides that little 50ms offset in our ECM processing of the crank signal, moving the firing order forward 1 position as you list above should work fine. In pic I posted above with both banks in Green/Yellow, #1 control in red line up perfectly with #3 injector in Green. So by moving the control pins, you would intern change the firing order. Not sure how the AF cam guys have been doing this on the LB7 and LLY's, but would guess, with these control wires.
 

1FastBrick

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Yeah my buddies snapon kit is missing everything you pictured..

I was able to capture the signals above by connecting directly to the #1 injector power and command wires. However due to the way this system has 4 injectors and 1 power wire, ya can't single out, or get a clean pattern off just 1 injector. So was thinking using the Secondary ignition options to read the amps load, rather than voltage might give us a cleaner injector pulse. Have a couple old crank sensors laying around that I'm attemptint to make a 5v pickup for my little bench scope.
I have all that stuff. I was a little worried you were looking for the other kit...
Snap On Secondary Ignition kit.jpg

I will just leave the link here... https://shop.snapon.com/product/Sec...econdary-Ignition,-SIA2000-Adaptor/EETA309A15
 

kidturbo

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I have all that stuff. I was a little worried you were looking for the other kit...
View attachment 118447

I will just leave the link here... https://shop.snapon.com/product/Secondary-Ignition-Adaptors/Secondary-Ignition,-SIA2000-Adaptor/EETA309A15
No just what you have should do fine. Watched some SnapOn sponsored YouTube videos on secondary ignition testing, and looks like a decent tool. Will take some trial and error, but ya should be able to use the secondary ignition options under the scope to capture some nice clean injector PW matching patterns. But without the cables, I'm just speculating.. lol
 
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1FastBrick

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No just what you have should do fine. Watched some SnapOn sponsored YouTube videos on secondary ignition testing, and looks like a decent tool. Will take some trial and error, but ya should be able to use the secondary ignition options under the scope to capture some nice clean injector PW matching patterns. But without the cables, I'm just speculating.. lol
Actually, I have that kit and I have the Flags for COP stuff. Scored it at a fraction of the New price years back on Ebay. ;)
 
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kidturbo

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If it's going to have a CPU fast enough to monitor everything, why not have it do the 90° delay too?

The programming wouldn't be trivial, but it's not insurmountable either. I've done embedded code with similar hard timing requirements before, but it's been a while. Might be fun to take a crack at it this winter.

Sent from my FlashScan V2 using Tapatalk
This point is valid. From what I've learned, it's not a dumb amplifier as we first thought. But is by today's standards, it's not landing a falcon 9. The diagnostics code consists of a dozen lines tops, with a basic bit structure to identify control or command status, conveying that to our ECM over canbus. I'm about to set down and spoof test all that code. But don't expect any issues communicating with the ECM using same commands as OEM. One could easily add CANbus flash update options to the final FUCM design at little or no additional expense.

IMO, we have a couple timing chips onboard running the show based off our crank pulse, and some basic code on a processor taking GPIO signals in, and bit shifting GPIO signals out. So playing with timing, is as simple as this little Arduino emulator. Probably has more processing power.. lol

While digging around for some IC data, I found another Bosch unit which contains that chip Jason was looking up. And this little stand alone MS4 ECM/U sure matches up in size and function with our FICM.. Below is the manual, with some good insight to our current coding.. Like Exactly The Bosch Reluctor Data I Have Been Searching For...

The Tooth Fairy..🧚‍♂️
Crank-Trigger-Fallin-Edge.jpg


 

kidturbo

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Tell your buddy to stop being cheap and order a new ignition lead kit... you already know what that scanner cost...
He has the whole kit, with cart, monitor, and keyboard.. But someone in the shop, scattered the cables.. I had to search 20 minutes just to find the R,Y,G,B cables and probes.. No sign of that secondary pickup..
 

2004LB7

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Almost done with the FUCM V1 test board. just need to complete the bench testing of the individual parts and verify that the design is sound and get the programming for it. then it's on to ordering and manufacturing. 1st batch I'll probably have to solder by hand. don't hold your breath. this isn't one that we will send out to anyone. it would just be for proof of concept and testing. production versions are still a ways off. this PCB here is about 5.5" x 4"

3D PCB Top.png

3D PCB Bottom.png
 

kidturbo

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Spent a few hours on the virtual machine reviewing the Snapon captures of our injector command wires night before. Confirmed a few things, learned some new things, raised some new questions..

Having the breadboard in play between the ECM and FICM on a bench setup works great for creating some situations that would be hard to recreate in a truck. Like FICM having a crank signal, but no injector control wires, at 600RPM. When it was going into limp mode, I could hear the injector solenoids clicking along with a pattern tracking cranks RPM. But they are not actually firing. My little caps are not clicking.. So our FICM is charging and discharging the 2 Injector Power leads in rhythm, every 180°, but the Injector Command wires are never pulling to ground long enough to engage the electromagnet. So who's in charge of this Reset?

First thing we notice in most of my captures below is, I have an electrical issue on Bank A circled in Red. Guessing an injector solenoid on that bank has a poor connection maybe. For some reason it's not draining that power line like Bank B. Will check it out, but it's present in most of these captures.

BankA_B_Cranks.jpg
Bank_A-B_No_Controls.jpg

Above with FICM injectors receiving no command to fire, our Injector Power leads for both banks charge and discharge in a specific crank-timed pattern. As we zoom in below, we can see it's recharge cycles are every 180° per bank, and directly related to the 1st or 16th gap on our ECM created crank speed signal. Which is sent with a 50ms delay from the true crank position signal we can't forget... Some funky math has to be figured in here somewhere. But for now, we will call tooth gap #1 our start of injector charge cycle for Bank B, and every 180° or 30 teeth after that fact with no control inputs,

FICM_Recharge_Reference_Line.jpg

So I wondered if this circuit cycle switching was linked to crank signal or control wires. I actually did this part last, but for educational sake, will reverse the procedure. Next I started removing control wires one at a time, two at time, and so on to capture how this power switching related to the transformers, was as also related to our Injector Control signals. And it is very much so.. As in, this is our fail-safe, or default recharge time for our PCB coils. If no other input, it uses the crank. If any control input, then it waits for the injector to fire before recharging. Which means, our little FICM processor with the heat sticking to backplane, is probably a busy little fellow making all these decisions..

In this pic we can see how it defaults to our crank based recharge time when just one injector control #4,, is removed from Bank A firing messages. It shifts the time slot to sooner than if would have normally of fired that injector and recharged. So it knew there was not pulse 4 coming, and picked the default trigger time based off the crank..

Bank-A_Injector-4_Off.jpg


And here it is again, but with opposite setup. Only Control 1 wire plugged into the FICM. We can see it has no problem Not following the crank speed signal for just one injection cycle per 720° of rotation. So again, the FICM processor is in total control of our operation. It looks at "9" control signals, 8 injector PW / Timing line, and 1 crank signal and does all the calculations. Like our 90° offset, our 50ms offset, and our tooth 1 reference line, to come up with our On Time for each injection cycle.

Betting one could seriously reprogram these units to run just fine with a single Injector Control signal, and that crank input. It's doing all the math, and following set timing rules, while computing all 9 values. With only 1 injection cycle value, PW and timing advance details, this FICM could easily replicate the other 7 injectors based off said data. But at least this way, it gives the ECM complete control over all 8 injectors parameters per rotation. Which means it can balance the injection cycles per stroke, cylinder, or however we see fit. While the FICM works out the injector power control based off simple 8 - 5v On/Off signals. and 1 - 10v crank trigger..

Bank_A-B_1-Control.jpg
 

darkness

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Wouldn’t you lose any ability to check balance rates and bidi controls of the injectors with only one input signal from the ecm? Or does all that info come from the FICM?
 

2004LB7

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Wouldn’t you lose any ability to check balance rates and bidi controls of the injectors with only one input signal from the ecm? Or does all that info come from the FICM?
I think that is all done on the ECM side. It will adjust the pulse control signal to the FICM to adjust the balance. I don't think the FICM reports any of that information back to the ECM. And bidirectional control is the same. Just turning off one of the control signals. As Ken found out, the FICM will happily continue to run with one or more control signals removed. You could in theory use these to run a four or six cylinder engine of you wanted
 

kidturbo

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Wouldn’t you lose any ability to check balance rates and bidi controls of the injectors with only one input signal from the ecm? Or does all that info come from the FICM?
Yes you would likely lose that test ability with that type of design. However this present EDU could easily handle such tasks. It's internal components could likely run this whole engine with proper coding. However it;s only being used as a patch in this application. So I don't find it that strange the way it sample the crank and injector control signals from the ECM, and then 90 degrees of rotation later, signals the injectors to fire using the exact same parameters.

I'm pretty sure the coding guys were like, "That's all you need us to make it do? Seriously?" And the platform integration engineers problem of driving a 48v injector with a gasser ECM they already had on the shelf, was solved..
 
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kidturbo

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Look what showed up today.. The prodigal son returns...

My first ever stand alone harness build. Things you never expect to see again, always have a way of showing up. This box is worth four times what it was last time is touched these parts.. lol
2d633dcdc93d32f653b11dfc9efcb95b.jpg


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