What parts are you guys cryoing on your engine builds?
Building a new motor and was wondering what parts I should have cryo'd?
Building a new motor and was wondering what parts I should have cryo'd?
Cryo'd for stength?
- Thread starter NemesisDP
- Start date
Cryo does nothing for ultimate strength. It is more for fatigue then anything. Cryoing is over sold as having mistic and magical powers. It does not. Where I work we make aerospace parts. We have a Cyro treating station in house. Non of my engine or driveline went thru it. If your bending or breaking parts out right it will not help you. If the failing from cyclic loading then it may.
Basicly buy good parts is money far better spent.
Basicly buy good parts is money far better spent.
Someone could correct me but my undersatanding on cryogenic treatment is more for increasing wear resistance and also help remove voids and imperfections in the material which equals to better heat dissipation.
I wouldn't look into it as much for strength, more as a added security to prolong the metal in the conditions we put or engine parts under.
Cryogenic treatment allows the carbon to 'weave' into the iron better.
I wouldn't look into it as much for strength, more as a added security to prolong the metal in the conditions we put or engine parts under.
Cryogenic treatment allows the carbon to 'weave' into the iron better.
I am baffled as to how it would remove voids and inperfection. We make parts with voids and sometimes imperfections. I can assure they are still there after we cryo.
Basicly what cryo does is massage the structure of the metal on very small level. When subjected to extreme cold the metal contracts. This forces and the particles in the metal closer together. This getting closer together aligns the particles in more even manner making a part slighty less likely to fail from from fatigue.
For a very indepth talk on this get a hold nwpadmax. He knows more about metals than most of us will ever forget about them.
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x2 John, I agree completely.
"Cryo-treating" stuff sounds really cool and badass, but I have yet to see it do anything amazing, like allow stock rods to withstand 750+ rwhp.
I wouldnt even bother treating anything in a motor build. The cranks are fine in stock trim (key them obviously), for the most part no one is breaking them.
ben
Has someone been watching a little Demolition Man??
What is the actual process when something gets cryoed??
Has someone been watching a little Demolition Man??
What is the actual process when something gets cryoed??
They make stuff really cold.
Cryogenic Treatment and processing promotes three transformations in heat-treated steels and cast irons.
1. Crystal structure (sometimes called grain structure) becomes consistent or homogenous through the conversion of austenite (one type of crystal) to the desired martensitic crystal (a different shaped crystal). After heat-treating, nearly all steels have a certain percentage of austenite that was not fully transformed into martensite. This is what metallurgists call “retained austenite” or “RA”. It is widely accepted in the heat-treating industry that all heat-treated steels will have some percentage of RA and heat treatment recipes routinely specify that RA will “not exceed” a certain percentage. This can vary from processor to processor, but almost all steels have a certain percentage of RA or retained austenite. Cryogenic treatment promotes the additional transformation of RA into martensite, which is what 90% (or more) of the steel already is and the condition that is most desirable. By eliminating retained austenite (or RA), voids or imperfections in the steel’s microstructure are eliminated. This is widely accepted and well-documented fact that is evident in X-Ray and SEM (scanning electron microscope) analysis of steels before and after cryogenic treatment.
2. The carbon structure of steels is modified through a mechanism that is technically described as “the precipitation of eta-carbides”. While it is not fully understood why this occurs, it is undisputed that it does happen and can also be seen through SEM (scanning electron microscope) analysis of steels that are cryogenically treated versus the non-cryogenically treated steel. The population of these eta-carbides – both brilliant ones (white ones) and dark ones (black ones) – is dramatically increased after cryogenic treatment. More information and photos can be viewed in the following technical paper, “Role of Eta-carbide Precipitation’s in the Wear Resistance Improvements of Fe-12-Cr-Mo-V-1.4C Tool Steel by Cryogenic Treatment” that was presented in 1994 at the Iron and Steel Institute of Japan. It was further documented in a paper presented at the ASM Heat Treat Conference in 2005 by Zbigniew Zurecki of Air Products entitled “Cryogenic Quenching of Steel Revisited”.
3. All metals – not just steel, but also aluminum, copper, cast alloys, etc. – benefit from the residual stress relief that deep cryogenic treatment promotes. All metals have residual stresses; they are created from the moment the metal “freezes” from its molten form into its solid form. Molten metal freezes – or transforms from its liquid phase to its solid phase - like water or other liquids that we are familiar with. As heat is extracted through cooling, dendrites (or crystals) form from the coolest areas first. Typically, these are the surfaces and edges. This irregular freezing results in natural stress lines where the dendrites collide or along the boundaries of the remaining liquid (molten) metal and the solid metal. After the metal is cast in it’s raw stock form, (e. g. block, billet, plate, round, etc.), it is heat treated to normalize the material and modify its properties (e.g. hardness, tensile strength, etc.). Once the raw stock is further modified, additional stresses are added (through its machining, cutting, grinding, forging, etc.) by the manufacturing process. When combined, all of these stresses form weak areas that are prone to fail through propagation of the stress lines into cracks. These are often characterized as fatigue failures or more simply “metal fatigue”. By attacking the root cause – the residual stresses – cryogenic treatment greatly reduces or eliminates fatigue failures or cracks in metal components.
4. We know from our customers that cryogenic treatment and processing of copper and other electrical components, including connectors, speaker wire, audio tubes, and light bulbs, etc. results in improved performance. Why this happens is not completely understood, but several explanations are likely:
* Stress relief of the metal removes barriers to electron exchange in cryogenically treated coppers.
* Bulbs and audio tubes (and other electrical systems) include numerous welds and solder joints that are by their very nature stress laden and the cryogenic treatment normalizes and stabilizes these welds and solders, as well as relieving stresses created in surrounding conductive areas
* Based on a paper that examined the effect of cryogenic treatment on semiconductor wafers, (which have copper conductive traces) we believe that the crystal structure becomes more efficiently aligned through the mechanical compression that occurs when the copper is exposed to extended dwells at cryogenic temperatures. This modification (as seen in semiconductors wafers) promoted more efficient electron exchange resulting in faster signal speeds and reduced heat production. It is reasonable to believe that a similar action is at play in conventional copper (and other) wires.
5. Many engineered components benefit simultaneously from two or more of the transformations discussed above. Cryogenically treated materials demonstrate better thermal properties, including improved heat dissipation and less warping or distortion. Stress relief means less cracking and the modification to the carbon microstructure means increased wear resistance. So you can see how brake rotors, for instance, will last longer and perform better because of several mechanisms and transformations that occur from cryogenic treatment.
1. Crystal structure (sometimes called grain structure) becomes consistent or homogenous through the conversion of austenite (one type of crystal) to the desired martensitic crystal (a different shaped crystal). After heat-treating, nearly all steels have a certain percentage of austenite that was not fully transformed into martensite. This is what metallurgists call “retained austenite” or “RA”. It is widely accepted in the heat-treating industry that all heat-treated steels will have some percentage of RA and heat treatment recipes routinely specify that RA will “not exceed” a certain percentage. This can vary from processor to processor, but almost all steels have a certain percentage of RA or retained austenite. Cryogenic treatment promotes the additional transformation of RA into martensite, which is what 90% (or more) of the steel already is and the condition that is most desirable. By eliminating retained austenite (or RA), voids or imperfections in the steel’s microstructure are eliminated. This is widely accepted and well-documented fact that is evident in X-Ray and SEM (scanning electron microscope) analysis of steels before and after cryogenic treatment.
2. The carbon structure of steels is modified through a mechanism that is technically described as “the precipitation of eta-carbides”. While it is not fully understood why this occurs, it is undisputed that it does happen and can also be seen through SEM (scanning electron microscope) analysis of steels that are cryogenically treated versus the non-cryogenically treated steel. The population of these eta-carbides – both brilliant ones (white ones) and dark ones (black ones) – is dramatically increased after cryogenic treatment. More information and photos can be viewed in the following technical paper, “Role of Eta-carbide Precipitation’s in the Wear Resistance Improvements of Fe-12-Cr-Mo-V-1.4C Tool Steel by Cryogenic Treatment” that was presented in 1994 at the Iron and Steel Institute of Japan. It was further documented in a paper presented at the ASM Heat Treat Conference in 2005 by Zbigniew Zurecki of Air Products entitled “Cryogenic Quenching of Steel Revisited”.
3. All metals – not just steel, but also aluminum, copper, cast alloys, etc. – benefit from the residual stress relief that deep cryogenic treatment promotes. All metals have residual stresses; they are created from the moment the metal “freezes” from its molten form into its solid form. Molten metal freezes – or transforms from its liquid phase to its solid phase - like water or other liquids that we are familiar with. As heat is extracted through cooling, dendrites (or crystals) form from the coolest areas first. Typically, these are the surfaces and edges. This irregular freezing results in natural stress lines where the dendrites collide or along the boundaries of the remaining liquid (molten) metal and the solid metal. After the metal is cast in it’s raw stock form, (e. g. block, billet, plate, round, etc.), it is heat treated to normalize the material and modify its properties (e.g. hardness, tensile strength, etc.). Once the raw stock is further modified, additional stresses are added (through its machining, cutting, grinding, forging, etc.) by the manufacturing process. When combined, all of these stresses form weak areas that are prone to fail through propagation of the stress lines into cracks. These are often characterized as fatigue failures or more simply “metal fatigue”. By attacking the root cause – the residual stresses – cryogenic treatment greatly reduces or eliminates fatigue failures or cracks in metal components.
4. We know from our customers that cryogenic treatment and processing of copper and other electrical components, including connectors, speaker wire, audio tubes, and light bulbs, etc. results in improved performance. Why this happens is not completely understood, but several explanations are likely:
* Stress relief of the metal removes barriers to electron exchange in cryogenically treated coppers.
* Bulbs and audio tubes (and other electrical systems) include numerous welds and solder joints that are by their very nature stress laden and the cryogenic treatment normalizes and stabilizes these welds and solders, as well as relieving stresses created in surrounding conductive areas
* Based on a paper that examined the effect of cryogenic treatment on semiconductor wafers, (which have copper conductive traces) we believe that the crystal structure becomes more efficiently aligned through the mechanical compression that occurs when the copper is exposed to extended dwells at cryogenic temperatures. This modification (as seen in semiconductors wafers) promoted more efficient electron exchange resulting in faster signal speeds and reduced heat production. It is reasonable to believe that a similar action is at play in conventional copper (and other) wires.
5. Many engineered components benefit simultaneously from two or more of the transformations discussed above. Cryogenically treated materials demonstrate better thermal properties, including improved heat dissipation and less warping or distortion. Stress relief means less cracking and the modification to the carbon microstructure means increased wear resistance. So you can see how brake rotors, for instance, will last longer and perform better because of several mechanisms and transformations that occur from cryogenic treatment.
So maybe it's just for shaft type aplications. How about tranny or axle shafts? Or anything else?
X2
Buick guys are known for cryo treating EVERYTHING. It is mainly to help prevent cracking due to fatigue. If our rods were cracking and then breaking it would help, But if they break its because they are bending. Cryo treating rods will do nothing to prevent bending.
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