Better power-straighter rods

Killerbee

Got Honey?
I couldn't think of another title. I am sharing some information that I think is going to be helpful to some of you, and it goes to the concerns of CP induced rod issues.

I completed a series of tests to determine just what kind of heat is going into the manifold with the air charge...part of an induction series I am doing.

The concern being, that a wide range of charge temps brings up the liklihood that the CP peak, LPP, is getting advanced as temps increase. IOW, all other things unchanged, as manifold inlet temperature, MIT, increases, ignition delay period decreases and combustion progresses at an increased rate, shorter period. These are facts. What is also fact is that the PCM does not account for MIP disparity prior to 06. So if MIT spikes from what is normally seen, what will happen is that LPP, location of peak pressure will steadily advance, power will drop, and pressure will sharply increase as LPP appraoches TDC...bent rods, cavitation erosion, etc can result.

I was very shocked to see MIT run up to 390 F, at a measly 23 psi, otherwise stock truck with a 150 IAT. Normally I see it around 250 tops. Why the difference? Heat soak. I had done 3-4 0-60 runs with quick decelerations, just to see CAC heat soak conditions.

Along with this heat soak, IAT also tends to climb, in this case to 150F. That added heat, as we know, is devastating to the heat of compression, and COT was 475 F. IOW very lousy CAC efficiency after heatsoak at low speed.

My guess is you guys go out there, start spinning tires, sitting around at idle, and the CAC gets hot in the process. This will show itself as warming IAT also, as I said. So my recommendation is this: When you are programming, program in some IAT retard, say 1-2 degrees for every 10 F of IAT increase over 90 F.
I don't drag, but this makes perfect sense to me, from what i am hearing from you all. I will post the charts if desired.

Edit: Nomenclature

C-compressor
O-outlet
T-temp
M-manifold
I-inlet
T-temp
P=Pressure
 
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malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
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i think alot has to do with the fan clutch when disengage it is ~20-30% of the driving speed.. and cuts down on pairsitiec lose... bad thing less air flowing.. i would like to see a electric clutch/ or fixed version for it... that can be switch able

i though baout grafting a hyd clutch off the MD rigs to controll the fan more..

ie stiing idleing will run 120* IAT on a 90*+ day...
 

sweetdiesel

That's better
Aug 6, 2006
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Thailand
Thanks for your info Michael

pardon my ignorance,but what is COT?

IAT timeing and the varible would need adjustment correct?
it has been a while since i have even looked at IAT timeing but IIRC it doesnt even do much for adjustment when you look at the varible in a stock tune......But it has been a while

thanks again for shareing your study
 

LBZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Jul 2, 2007
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So is it safe to say Michael that your findings are directly related to heat soak
If so is this where a water to air intercooler would be a huge improvement for drag trucks

P.S. Those were questions. This stupid computer in the Business class lounge in Moscow wont let me type apostrophes or question marks. They look like this ¨´´ _ Ñ
 

LarryJewell

Back with his honey :)
Jan 21, 2007
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i think alot has to do with the fan clutch when disengage it is ~20-30% of the driving speed.. and cuts down on pairsitiec lose... bad thing less air flowing.. i would like to see a electric clutch/ or fixed version for it... that can be switch able

i though baout grafting a hyd clutch off the MD rigs to controll the fan more..

ie stiing idleing will run 120* IAT on a 90*+ day...

Kinda like this :D

I installed this Saturday, I have found that my Fan clutch is only engaging when my trans temp exceedes 180* on days hotter than say 85* outside. Its a 10" fan, relay and switch to turn it on as needed. So far so good :D
 

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Killerbee

Got Honey?
Nomenclature

C-compressor
O-outlet
T-temp
M-manifold
I-inlet
T-temp
P=Pressure
LTR-low temp radiator

COT and MIT are just the temps on either side of the CAC.

What I saw also, is that the heat soak creates a condition. where there is added pressure drop, I assume due to the higher velocity of the hotter charge throughout more of the induction tract. That results in higher COP (boost) called by the PCM. It's an element of thermal feedback I hadn't seen before.

A W-A CAC might help, one that has a fan on the LTR. Those tend not to be good for towing though. But actually this finally makes a case for dual electrics (can't believe I just said that). IOW, you can cool down the CAC with a switch. Moderate pre-compressor or external water injection at part throttle would also help. Just thinking out loud.
 
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malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
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Kinda like this :D

I installed this Saturday, I have found that my Fan clutch is only engaging when my trans temp exceedes 180* on days hotter than say 85* outside. Its a 10" fan, relay and switch to turn it on as needed. So far so good :D

that would be air temp not fluid temp that ativates the clutch :(
 

LarryJewell

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Jan 21, 2007
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that would be air temp not fluid temp that ativates the clutch :(

Nope, I moniter IAT on a guage, Stop & go traffic on a hot day, sitting at a light, IAT may rise to say 130*, but the trans temp is at 150 - 170, the clutch does not activate..................

Same situation, the trans temp is at 190* and the clutch activates, I'll let you know if this helps out or not, But i'm betting that this just might have a direct link to the clutch activating.
 

malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
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fan clutch is a thermal clutch. menaing enough hot air has to pass over hte fins to get it to engage.

it is also sensing the heat from the radiator as well.
 

MAXLLY

No Lemming Here
Aug 15, 2007
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Nope, I moniter IAT on a guage, Stop & go traffic on a hot day, sitting at a light, IAT may rise to say 130*, but the trans temp is at 150 - 170, the clutch does not activate..................

Same situation, the trans temp is at 190* and the clutch activates, I'll let you know if this helps out or not, But i'm betting that this just might have a direct link to the clutch activating.

Makes sense Larry :)

In my build I considered trans/oil and anything else attached to the water cooled system as parasitic and removed and/or relocated it. The only thing my rad is doing is cooling the motor, the only thing in front of the rad is the IC rad (single row dual pass) and the A/C.

Nice study Michael. Great facts.
 
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LarryJewell

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Jan 21, 2007
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fan clutch is a thermal clutch. menaing enough hot air has to pass over hte fins to get it to engage.

it is also sensing the heat from the radiator as well.

Exactly, Hot trans cooler sends hotter air thru the stack, this is what I'm trying to eliminate by keeping circulation during hotter times of the year in stop and go traffic. The radiator temps is a constant so far, reading 192*, only time it seems to raise is on a WOT run and i'm not concerned with that. This may not work, at least somebody was brave enough to test it, we'd learn nothing if nobody stuck their neck or money on the line. :eek:
 
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Killerbee

Got Honey?
The DD fan would be a flop. You would hate it (unless redesigning the fan drive pulley to be bigger... ), and the actual air flow would be less, not more, if you can believe that. Also the parasitic power loss would double, with more of the fan in stall. There are fans designed for this however, they have more flexibility and are made to exhibit constant load. Almost like variable pitch props, except these streamline by virtue of the airload on them, and therefore they are "stall-proof". That could be a really good idea. High idle would cool things down quicker, etc.

I was kind of hoping this might spark discussion about alternative CAC cooling methods, water and such. W/I could be modulated with MIT, for example. MIT is the best indicator of heat soak I have found.
 

vortecfcar

No longer a member
Jun 28, 2007
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Good info here, no doubt. Alternative CAC cooling means are certainly the preferred option, but I think there's also a case for more strict vane position limits and IAT vs. desired boost adjustments. Just thinking out loud I guess...

Nick
 

LarryJewell

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Jan 21, 2007
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So far my trans temps have been kept under control with the 10" fan, kinda makes me wonder what 2 pusher fans might do placed in front of the whole stack.

I'll keep watching it, hotter days are coming, that will be the true test.
 

LarryJewell

Back with his honey :)
Jan 21, 2007
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The electric fan worked great keeping the fan clutch from engaging, up until we started getting days in the upper 90's. The fan clutch finally activated yesterday. Any other ideas floating around to get rid of the fan clutch :(
 

ZeroGravity58

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2008
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The electric fan worked great keeping the fan clutch from engaging, up until we started getting days in the upper 90's. The fan clutch finally activated yesterday. Any other ideas floating around to get rid of the fan clutch :(

I put the flexalite on mine and havent had any problems with them. They ar enice and quiet :cool: Easy to install and the truck heats up nice and quick in the winter.
 

malibu795

misspeelleerr
Apr 28, 2007
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balanceing???

so i was talking to a balance shop.

acrodign to them the average R/A is only balance too +/- 20 grams from the factory.. most aftermarket RA is +/-2 grams.

could this 20gram tolerance play a role in a the rods getting bent soon rather then later?

having the finer closer tolerance one would thing that would be easier on everything.......