An update from Gale Banks

jbarker@bankspower

<Worlds 2nd Fastest Dmax
Mar 24, 2008
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Hey again guys and gals. As many of you know we were not able to make the drag event in Steel AL. this past weekend. You may have read this on another forum but I thought I would post it up here as well:D

Dear friends and fellow diesel freaks,

It's mid-May 2008, and we are now at a power level with the Banks Sidewinder S-10 that is reminding me of all the nitromethane-burning engines I raced back in the day. We are using up pistons like a good thing. We're not changing them every run like I did with my nitro-burning rails and drag boats, but we're changing them too damn often for a diesel. We've been doing it for a while, and it's only gotten more problematic as we've made more power and gotten down into the 7.70s. Now we are too close to "running on kill" for my liking.

The culprit is injector on-time as measured in crank angle degrees. As we have gained engine speed (now 5,800 rpm at times) and increased fuel rate, our piston position at injector closing has gone down the hole. The truck weighs 2,930 pounds, we're in the low 7.70s, and we're making good power (1,280 bhp). Of course there's more power to come, but first we need to address getting more fuel in and using less crank angle to do it.

Right now, at 1,280 bhp, the thermal energy from the injected fuel is gradually drilling 7 holes in each piston right at the top edge of the firing cup. We have not killed an engine, but this is not good for long-term piston life. We have gotten to this level using a single Bosch 3.3 pump that we have modified for proper fuel control at the flow and pump speed (same as engine speed) that we are demanding. Honestly, with this engine combination, 1,200 bhp is probably the safe limit. Beyond that, we begin to have demanded rail pressure problems.

It works like this: You demand torque with the throttle. The EDC-16 controller commands the rail pressure and injector on-time necessary to produce the desired torque at that rpm. If the pump can't supply the necessary rail pressure, the software extends the injector on-time to allow the required fuel amount to be delivered to the cylinder. That is just what occurs when we go beyond a nominal 1,200 bhp while turning in the 5,500 rpm range. The extended injector on-time leads to piston crown erosion, and then we need to change the pistons.

That occurred while we were testing last week at Speedworld Dragstrip over in Arizona in preparation for the Alabama meet this weekend. We are now freshening that motor but will not be able to finish it in time to make the tow and be there Saturday...and that bums me out, Big Time.

When the motor goes back in the truck, we are going to back it down so it can make a reasonable number of laps between rebuilds. Based on our records, that should be a 7.80s setup and capable of doing that lap after lap. Then we will begin our next engine build using a new combination of pieces.

Our new engine combination involves a lot of revisions to piston design, rings, fuel supply, injectors, camshaft and high-swirl cylinder heads, all of which are being manufactured now. Also, we're building a new Spitzer-based "Top Dragster," and we plan to start working that car with a clutch as opposed to the torque converter setup in the S-10. Mike Spitzer is another "senior citizen" who hasn't realized it...just like me. And he's got a thing for Bonneville...just like me. I wonder where this is going? Time will tell; both of us have miles to go before we rest.

So best regards to you all, especially the new friends I’ve made the last few months at Famoso and Beech Bend.

I'll see you soon,

Gale Banks
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,717
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White Oak, PA
Their erosion is more than likely from the fuel stream impacting the piston crown. We have seen that on a lot of high HP engines. They do not mention cracking the pistons. Knowing the Banks Team, they have been watching their chamber pressures closely while developing their tune.

I wonder if they will go with multiple injectors or with a cross fire setup to reduce the fuel stream impact on the crowns.
 

Kat

Wicked Witch of the West
Aug 2, 2006
17,899
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Norco, CA
Maybe they look something like this :eek:
 

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jbarker@bankspower

<Worlds 2nd Fastest Dmax
Mar 24, 2008
390
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Wow! So the holes in the pistons are being done by the injectors, or just the ignition of the fuel? Incredible to say the least.

It has to do with the injector spray pattern more then anything else. The stock injector nozzle, as well as all the aftermarket ones we've tried, are running into the same problem. So, in true Gale Banks form, we're coming up with our own design:D And yes we are going to make them available to the public.
 

jbarker@bankspower

<Worlds 2nd Fastest Dmax
Mar 24, 2008
390
0
0
49
Their erosion is more than likely from the fuel stream impacting the piston crown. We have seen that on a lot of high HP engines. They do not mention cracking the pistons. Knowing the Banks Team, they have been watching their chamber pressures closely while developing their tune.

I wonder if they will go with multiple injectors or with a cross fire setup to reduce the fuel stream impact on the crowns.

Exactly, but we have NEVER had a piston cracking problem with our engines even at this power level. We did, in early testing, have a stock LBZ piston seperate just above the wrist pin (leaving it sitting in the bore) at 5100RPM though our computer model said that might happen. The modified pistons we have in this truck are going to be made available to the public as well and they will machined to work with our injectors spray pattern.:cool2:
 

jbarker@bankspower

<Worlds 2nd Fastest Dmax
Mar 24, 2008
390
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Maybe they look something like this :eek:

I don't know what the piston crowns look like (either before or after) so I couldn't say either way. But I do have a piston on my desk that looks like that...they make great paper weights:D
 

jbarker@bankspower

<Worlds 2nd Fastest Dmax
Mar 24, 2008
390
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Just an FYI here's what our pistons look like compared to stock. Left is the stock piston, the right is a Banks modified piston.
Pistons-TypeR.jpg
 

Fingers

Village Idiot
Vendor/Sponsor
Apr 1, 2008
1,717
96
48
White Oak, PA
Exactly, but we have NEVER had a piston cracking problem with our engines even at this power level. We did, in early testing, have a stock LBZ piston seperate just above the wrist pin (leaving it sitting in the bore) at 5100RPM though our computer model said that might happen. The modified pistons we have in this truck are going to be made available to the public as well and they will machined to work with our injectors spray pattern.:cool2:

NOT Relocating the injector in the head? Then you will accept some wall wash down and increase the injector protrusion into the chamber. Probably work on keeping the upper ring land as far as possible from the crown.

Gotta love a shop that can roll their own top notch parts.

But, what do I know.
 

LTS Max

New member
Apr 4, 2008
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So are steel pistons an option? Are they not appropriate for that high rpm use? I'm talking about the Mahle Monotherm ones.
 

jbarker@bankspower

<Worlds 2nd Fastest Dmax
Mar 24, 2008
390
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So are steel pistons an option? Are they not appropriate for that high rpm use? I'm talking about the Mahle Monotherm ones.

Between the wear on the cylinder walls and the weight increase (at almost 6000rpm) I don't think steel would be a good choice.
 

jbarker@bankspower

<Worlds 2nd Fastest Dmax
Mar 24, 2008
390
0
0
49
NOT Relocating the injector in the head? Then you will accept some wall wash down and increase the injector protrusion into the chamber. Probably work on keeping the upper ring land as far as possible from the crown.

Gotta love a shop that can roll their own top notch parts.

But, what do I know.


There's not a whole lot of cylinder wash down when combustion is this complete (smokless). As far as the protrusion into the chamber (i have no data on the injector fitment) this make explain the way the pistons are machined the way they are.
 

mytmousemalibu

Cut your ride, sissy!
Apr 12, 2008
2,230
0
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Kansas
just thinkin at large here...

Don't the 20,000+ rpm F1 engines run Ceramic pistons?

PRO's
1. There proven to run insane piston speeds
2. EGT's, there ceramic and i bet an F1 engine runs stupid EGT's (look at the headers during warm-up:eek:)
3. the F1 boys claim little to no wear
4. Lightweight (Older Novarossi R/C engine had a ceramic slug in it and it reved past 41K)

Why cant these be adapted to diesel use? I'm sure they'ed be pricy. If loads on them for a diesel are too high? Makem a little beefier, we don't need them light enough to rev to 20K. IDK, just thinkin outside the alum, slugs:D
 

MMLMM

Tunergeek
Mar 2, 2008
4,086
2
38
43
Reno, NV
www.dyncal.com
It has to do with the injector spray pattern more then anything else. The stock injector nozzle, as well as all the aftermarket ones we've tried, are running into the same problem. So, in true Gale Banks form, we're coming up with our own design:D And yes we are going to make them available to the public.


I heard of this thought before, I just cant remember where ;)