Allison 6sp: 2wd to 4wd Head Scratching

SmokeShow

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As you all may recall, I'm putting an LBZ in my 83 GMC truck. The donor truck is 06 2wd but the 83 will be 4wd. I'm racking my brain on all the ways I can get from A (2wd donor) to B (4wd 83) with this thing and I really REALLY want to be able to use an NP261 manual shift transfer case instead of a divorced NP205. Where I'm having trouble is converting the electronics on the donor to full 4wd so that the TCM, ECM and transfer case all work properly when engaged. So I think I might have an idea to not have to switch the electronics but I need to know if it's feasible/doable or if I need to go back to the drawing board on it....


On the 4wd allison, the speed sensor is on the back of the transfer case whereas it's on the allison tail housing on the 2wd, right?? What I'm thinking about is swapping the 2wd tail housing and output shaft for those for a 4wd transmission so that the NP261 will bolt up like it normally would for a 4wd application. The difference is, I'm thinking of drilling and tapping the 4wd tail housing so I can keep the speed sensor on the output shaft of the transmission yet have a bolted on NP261 like a 4wd. In this configuration, as far as the electronics are concerned, it should all stay and function as a 2wd but the truck will physically be able to engage in 4wd and the electronics not really "know" it.

1) is there room inside the 4wd tailhousing to put the exciter ring on the 4wd output shaft and mount the speed sensor?

2) Am I correct in thinking that the allison will still work just like any other 2wd allison and DMAX combo even when I pull the transfer case into 4wd?? It shouldn't "know" that it's got a transfer case behind it, right??? I don't see how this would be any different, as far as the allison is concerned, than swapping the differential gears to something else and that doesn't have any adverse, or incorrectable, effects as far as I know.



I think I've found some info on this on pirate4x4 where a guy bolted an NP205 to his allison and did just what I mention doing - tapping the 4wd tail housing and putting the speed sensor there. Difference is, he used an adaptor to mate the allison output shaft to the NP205 input shaft and that's where he was able to put the exciter ring. Could I possibly do something similar with the input snout/hub (not sure what it's called but I'm trying to say the piece that the allison output shaft goes into) of the transfer case by putting the exciter ring on it??? Looks like space is not gonna be a concern.

Allison to NP205
 

SmokeShow

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Dangit! Forgot about that. :D makes sense though.

Hmmm.

In light of that detail, will everything else still be alright if there is no signal from the transfer case to the ECM or TCM and the SS on the transfer case output shaft as suggested??? Seems like it would be so long as the allison is basing it's shifts off of the actual output speed. I just wouldn't be able to have different shift tables for 2wd and 4LO like a typical 4wd. Only have the tables available for a 2wd. And that should be alright. I think I can work with that. And actually, this seems better/easier than trying to get the SS into the allison 4wd tailhousing as there's already provisions for a SS on the output shaft of the NP261. :D


C-ya
 
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05smoker

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Output SS will have to be in the transfer case if you ever put it in 4L.

Just order the pig tail for your harness from the dealer (at least I know that's what we did on a 5 spd when converting from electronic to manual).

We learned the hard way. The ECM/TCM have no idea when you pull that lever without the sensor.

Ed
 
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SmokeShow

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Just order the pig tail for your harness from the dealer (at least I know that's what we did on a 5 spd when converting from electronic to manual).

We learned the hard way. The ECM/TCM have no idea when you pull that lever without the sensor.

Ed

Did you ever find the part number for that pigtail?? Where exactly does the pigtail go? To the Speed Sensor on the back of the transfer case???

I don't think I want my ECM/TCM to know when I pull it into 4LO. Less tuning things to go wrong and the LBZ has been known to have some trouble in 4LO. So if it doesn't really know it's in 4LO, maybe it won't be a problem??? That's my hope anyways.


C-ya
 

05smoker

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Did you ever find the part number for that pigtail?? Where exactly does the pigtail go? To the Speed Sensor on the back of the transfer case???

I don't think I want my ECM/TCM to know when I pull it into 4LO. Less tuning things to go wrong and the LBZ has been known to have some trouble in 4LO. So if it doesn't really know it's in 4LO, maybe it won't be a problem??? That's my hope anyways.


C-ya

I don't know if it will shift right. Ours was set to shift at 4100 and it shifted at about 2100 instead on that run.:mad: Someone might be able to tune it for you but I don't know for sure.

I'll try to find that part # for you.
 

SmokeShow

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Thing is though, yours is already a 4wd truck/wiring system. Wherever that pigtail is going on the transfer case could be sending a signal to ECM/TCM letting it know it's in 4wd???? For instance, are you still able to use the different 4wd tranmission tables in the TCM for things like, second gear start in 4LO??? If so, then somehow, some way, your TCM/ECM are finding out you switched to 4wd. Mine should have absolutely no way of knowing/doing that if all it's got as a reference is the SS on the output shaft of the transfer case and whatever else the ECM/TCM is told from a 2wd transmission. Right???


C-ya
 

othrgrl

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Why not use a 4WD TCM or flash your TCM with a 4WD OS and hook everything up the way it would be on a manual t-case truck?

I haven't done any of this but this is what I think will happen if your SS is on the output of the t-case and the computers don't know that it is in 4LO:

The output shaft will be spinning at half the speed that the computers are expecting for that gear and RPM, the trans will think it is slipping and will go into limp mode.

Your truck will be wanting to shift at the speed it would in high range so for example ~10mph 1>2 shift (part throttle) but it won't be able to get to that speed at that throttle position so you'll be hung in 1st.

If you don't want the ECM/TCM to know I think putting the SS at the trans output shaft would work better. It would shift at the same RPM and displayed speed whether you were in high or low range. Your speedometer would show about double the speed you were actually going while in low range.
 

JoshH

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Can't do a full flash on an LBZ or 6 speed ECM or TCM so you'd have to get new computers with the correct OS already installed.
 

SmokeShow

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I have contacted Brayden but have not heard back from him yet. I'm pretty sure he'd know how to fix this best but...


So back at this...

is there a speed sensor somewhere "down stream" after the transmission? I just don't see how it's gonna be a problem with shifting if the speed sensor stays on the allison output shaft instead of post transfer case IF the sole speed sensor talking to the ECM/TCM is before the transfer case. Only thing that should be thrown off is the speedometer while in 4LO and I think I can deal with that and maybe even write a PID to do the conversion for me while logging in 4LO if I find I need to know the tire speed.

So, is there some other input to the TCM referencing the speed that throws a stick in my spokes?


C-ya
 
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othrgrl

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There are the front wheel ABS sensors, but nothing rearward of the trans speed sensor - which is what gives your ECM, TCM, and speedo your speed reading. The ABS sensors would be reading about half of what the the trans output says but that happens when the back tires break loose and on the dyno anyway - so that shouldn't be an issue.